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Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:37 pm
by AEA
http://apnews.myway.com//article/200906 ... RDA80.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jun 17, 11:38 PM (ET)

By DEVLIN BARRETT and EILEEN SULLIVAN

WASHINGTON (AP) - Government efforts to stop the flow of guns from the United States to Mexico have suffered in recent years from having no clear plan to combat gunrunners affiliated with drug cartels, investigators have concluded.

The Government Accountability Office, which is delivering its findings to Congress on Thursday, noted that federal agencies only recently began coordinating with Mexican counterparts on ways to stop gunrunning along the border.

GAO investigators were critical of the two principal U.S. agencies - Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - for not working together.

Until early June, the GAO says, "the U.S. government did not have a strategy that explicitly addressed arms trafficking to Mexico."

Investigators said that without a strategy, "individual U.S. agencies have undertaken a variety of activities and projects to combat arms trafficking to Mexico."

Citing ATF data, the investigator Jess T. Ford says that over the past three years, more than 90 percent of the firearms traced after being seized in Mexico have come from the U.S. The figure is slightly less over a five-year period.

"While it is impossible to know how many firearms are illegally trafficked into Mexico in a given year, over 20,000, or around 87 percent, of firearms seized by Mexican authorities and traced over the past 5 years originated in the United States," the GAO's Ford says in testimony prepared for a House subcommittee hearing on Thursday. The GAO is the investigative arm of Congress.

Rep. Eliot Engel, who chairs the subcommittee, said there should have been an anti-gunrunning strategy in place since October 2007 when the U.S. and Mexico agreed to the joint cartel-fighting Merida initiative.

"It is mind-boggling that for a year and a half, we have had no interagency strategy to address this major problem, but instead have relied on uncoordinated efforts by a variety of agencies," Engel, D-N.Y. said in a statement issued ahead of Thursday's hearing.

Engel said the firearms flowing illegally from the U.S. into Mexico have made the drug cartels' jobs easier.

In a draft of the report, the GAO cited several examples of the miscommunication between ICE and ATF, including:

- During one operation, an ICE agent unknowingly covertly kept watch on the activities of an undercover ATF agent who was investigating a suspected trafficker.

- ATF did not tell ICE about a covert operation where ATF agents delivered weapons across the border in an attempt to ferret out the Mexican organizations receiving illegal arms. ATF should have notified ICE about the controlled attempt to export weapons illegally, the GAO said. Not coordinating raised the chances that the weapons could end up in the wrong hands.

- In some cases, ICE and ATF refused to give each other required documentation for investigations.

The two agencies were working off of a 1978 agreement about dual investigations, which was cited by the GAO as a major obstacle to coordination. An updated agreement to address the coordination problem is in the works, the report said.
End article.......

"Citing ATF data, the investigator Jess T. Ford says that over the past three years, more than 90 percent of the firearms traced after being seized in Mexico have come from the U.S. The figure is slightly less over a five-year period".

I was under the impression that this 90% figure had been rebutted by the ATF and now, here it is again........being thrown to the public....... :banghead:

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:14 am
by G.A. Heath
"the 90% of the guns seized by the Mexican police" number was debunked with "90% of the guns submitted for tracing were found to come from the US." However according to Fox News this means 17% of the guns in Mexico came from the US. So the 90% and the 87% figures are possibly correct, but used in a manner intended to mislead people into thinking that 90% of the Mexican drug guns come from the US.

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:06 am
by Mike1951
Factcheck.org did an analysis a few weeks back, faulting both figures.

They claimed about 33%.

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:09 am
by Purplehood
G.A. Heath wrote:"the 90% of the guns seized by the Mexican police" number was debunked with "90% of the guns submitted for tracing were found to come from the US." However according to Fox News this means 17% of the guns in Mexico came from the US. So the 90% and the 87% figures are possibly correct, but used in a manner intended to mislead people into thinking that 90% of the Mexican drug guns come from the US.
Well if the vast majority submitted for tracing are only the ones picked up with serial numbers that come from the US, of course it is going to appear that they primarily come from here.

Lets say that 5 US apples, 5 Chinese eggrolls, 5 Russian borscht's (or whatever) are all smuggled into Mexico.

The Mexicans then hand us the 5 apples that they figure came from the US, and ask us to trace them. We find that they all came from the state of Washington. They didn't give us the Chinese and Russian stuff because they know it didn't come from here.

Voila! 100% of smuggled foods into Mexico come from the US!

I learned that on Dora the Explorer.

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:56 am
by mr.72
Purplehood wrote:
G.A. Heath wrote: Lets say that 5 US apples, 5 Chinese eggrolls, 5 Russian borscht's (or whatever) are all smuggled into Mexico...

Voila! 100% of smuggled foods into Mexico come from the US!

I learned that on Dora the Explorer.
So the real answer is: we need to get members of the press and Congress to watch Dora the Explorer or other preschooler TV shows so they can develop the kind of common sense that is routine for 5-year-olds.

[/sarcasm]

They are not likely publishing data that is in error, or by mistake or misunderstanding. They are publishing data that is misused intentionally to support their premise. The premise is "legal sales of guns in the USA is a bad thing". So they go out and find evidence to suggest this that voters will be likely to understand or agree with. Finding some data that can be bent to suggest that 87% of "guns" seized in Mexico came from the USA is perfect for this task. Now whether reporters know that this data is being misused or not is unknown. But certainly those releasing this data to the press know good and well that they are misleading them with it.

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:56 am
by nitrogen
It's a sad fact of politics today that reality doesn't matter when you have an agenda to push. It reminds me of the whole "Iraq has WMD" and "Saddam helped plan 9/11"

Yet another reason why they all need to be sent to the curb. I find it so cute when people think there's a difference anymore.

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:20 pm
by stevie_d_64
A local news station is running a story about how Houston is the focal point for all the guns going to Mexico (or across the border) now...

I think the story is running tonight...

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:42 pm
by bryang
It does not make any difference to the government what the truth is, they will find an "expert" to say what they want to hear so they can push their agenda down our throats. It does not matter if they are Dem or Rep, they are all up there for one thing...to get reelected.

-geo

Re: Dems still cannot get facts straight on Guns to Mexico

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:56 am
by bdickens
They know what the truth is.