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TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:58 am
by seamusTX
In July, Chattanooga police responded to a call about a reportedly intoxicated, suicidal man who was pointing a shotgun at his own head in public. After a protracted encounter, the man reportedly pointed the shotgun at officers. Six officers fired 59 shots, hitting the man 43 times.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009 ... 43-wounds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Jim
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:22 am
by Oldgringo
Nothing like live target practice.
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:16 am
by joe817
Sounds like a classic suicide by cop incident to me.
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:11 pm
by ELB
seamusTX wrote: ...Six officers fired 59 shots, hitting the man 43 times. ...
I don't have a stack of statistics in front of me, but a 73% hit rate is astoundingly high for police shootings in general. For example, as I recall in the case of the NY guy in a doorway who tried to pull his wallet when challenged and got shot for it, the four (I think) police officer fired nearly as many shots as this incident, but only got 19 hits.
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:35 pm
by seamusTX
That's why I posted this story.
Police have about a 50% hit rate on average, and some incidents have been much lower.
- Jim
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:23 pm
by Keith B
seamusTX wrote:That's why I posted this story.
Police have about a 50% hit rate on average, and some incidents have been much lower.
- Jim
Remember, these are Tennessee hills cops, not New York City born and bred folks. They probably grew up a huntin' and a shootin', and maybe still do today!
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:09 pm
by WarHawk-AVG
TN vs NY
Country boy will survive!
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:42 pm
by ELB
seamusTX wrote:That's why I posted this story.
Police have about a 50% hit rate on average, and some incidents have been much lower.
- Jim
I think you are being generous. I don't have a nationwide statistical database at my fingertips, but I would wager 30% is closer to it. NYPD's SOP 9 shows they had a nine (9) percent hit rate for the year 2000. ( Seems hard to find more current figures -- I think they have their SOP 9 results under wraps nowadays...) NYPD is not the whole country, but they probably drag the average down a bit...
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:49 pm
by casingpoint
Absolutely a case of overkill. Sure, they're all good shots compared to those city boy cops. So, did they really have to get off almost ten rounds apiece to take out the suspect? This is a known syndrome with cops. One shoots, they all shoot. Same thing happened in the Sean Bell case in NYC. The Texas Rangers used to send in just one man to get their man.
Just a thought: would the percentage of hits gone up with 357 MAG revolvers in lieu of semi automatics? There's a lot of nervous squirrels this time of year in them thar hills....
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:20 pm
by ELB
casingpoint wrote:Absolutely a case of overkill. ... So, did they really have to get off almost ten rounds apiece to take out the suspect? ...
The point is to shoot until the threat is neutralized, which in most cases mean he is down and either DRT or close to it. If it takes 10 rounds total, or 10 rounds apiece, you keep shooting until you know he is down. If most of your shots miss, it means you are going to have to shoot some more to get to the "threat neutralized" stage.
casingpoint wrote:This is a known syndrome with cops. One shoots, they all shoot. Same thing happened in the Sean Bell case in NYC.
It seems to be called "bunch shooting." Yes round counts per shooter go up when everyone is shooting. (And it's not like they can discuss it: "Ok I'll shoot." "NO I'll do it. "No, me! me!" "Let Harv do it, he was high score at quals...") Regardless, only "effective hits" count, not total round count. The problem with the number of rounds in these scenarios is not the total expended, it is the number of misses... And of course, having justification to start shooting in the first place...
Re: TN: 59 shots, 43 hits
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:44 pm
by seamusTX
ELB wrote:It seems to be called "bunch shooting." Yes round counts per shooter go up when everyone is shooting. (And it's not like they can discuss it: "Ok I'll shoot." "NO I'll do it. ...
I agree.
I would challenge anyone to exercise restraint when you have an intoxicated, deranged man pointing a weapon at you, and suddenly it sounds like you are in a war zone and maybe have other officers' hot brass hitting you.
A SWAT team might have a designated first shooter, but not a random group of beat officers who responded to a call.
- Jim