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I friend of mine was telling me about Haganah. Haganah is an integrated Israeli-style fighting system. Haganah teaches unarmed combat(standup and ground), defense against knives and guns, tactical knife fighting, combat shooting, and even counterterrorism tactics. You can read more about it at Black Belt Magazine

Since Houston Haganah is nearby, I decided to check it out.

Needless to say I've been impressed with what I've seen so far. Mike Lee Kanarek seems to really know what he was doing when he put the system together. Training is designed to get you up to speed quickly and is very well structured. The gun disarms and some of the other moves are similar to Krav Maga, but Haganah is much more aggressive in response to a threat.

I don't know enough about the knife and combat shooting programs yet to comment on them, but if you're looking to learn some hand-to-hand skills, Haganah is worth checking out.

Presumably, with Haganah you aren't inculcated with something similar to the folderol of the Asian based martial arts, i.e., having to call the instructor Sensei and go through the rigamarole of bowing and generally required to act as if you're not American?

I would be interested if all that kind of hoopla is not present and simply learn the various fighting techniques.

I did quite a bit of boxing (not to mention street fighting) as a younger guy, but years ago the first class I attended in martial arts turned me off with their emphasis on force feeding an entirely different culture as a big part of the training.

I'm not interested in becoming a monk or it's equal from some other culture as part of the training program.

Abraham wrote:Presumably, with Haganah you aren't inculcated with something similar to the folderol of the Asian based martial arts, i.e., having to call the instructor Sensei and go through the rigamarole of bowing and generally required to act as if you're not American?

I would be interested if all that kind of hoopla is not present and simply learn the various fighting techniques.

I did quite a bit of boxing (not to mention street fighting) as a younger guy, but years ago the first class I attended in martial arts turned me off with their emphasis on force feeding an entirely different culture as a big part of the training.

I'm not interested in becoming a monk or it's equal from some other culture as part of the training program.

No "sensei" stuff or bowing or "un-American" stuff in Haganah. Houston Haganah is probably a bit different than other Haganah classes as the instructor is shamelessly Christian and there are prayers said at every class.

Abraham wrote:Presumably, with Haganah you aren't inculcated with something similar to the folderol of the Asian based martial arts, i.e., having to call the instructor Sensei and go through the rigamarole of bowing and generally required to act as if you're not American?

Just a note that Asian systems can't all be lumped into that generalization. They did all originate where they originated, and most had other points of derivation...none of which was North America. So I can't really comment on what does and doesn't make you feel as if you're acting un-American when studying them.

But what first came into the U.S. in the 1950s and '60s were stylized, homogenized, ritualized systems, some of which were expressly created as sports and rooted only loosely to their fight-for-survival origins. Typically, the closer a system stays to its true fighting roots, the less stylized and formalized it is, e.g. some of the Southeast Asian fighting methods. But some of those systems--even those that remained "unritualized" as recently as the 1970s--can be dampened by commercialism. It's difficult to teach a large number of students in multiple locations without a standardized syllabus.

With the advent of MMA in the 1990s, you started seeing more and more schools doing away with some of the trappings we first saw in the U.S. from Judo and Karate and Taekwondo. Some sort of belt system typically remains, but you're less likely to see the requirement for an official gi or chuan-i, less likely to see the genealogy of the founders of the style on the wall, and less likely to bow before entering the training area. That held true also when Krav Maga began to gain popularity in the '90s and early into 2000.

Wrapping up, I think you'll find many more options today that will suit you than you could have 20 years ago. You can even find some folks, like Kelly McCann, teaching combatives as drawn from U.S. special forces instruction. One cautionary note: CHL holders looking for training would, I think, best be served by not focusing on grappling systems like Brazillian Jujitsu. The ground game can be devastating in a one-on-one, unarmed confrontation, but in armed or multiple-attacker scenarios it can be the wrong tactical decision. Krav Maga emphasizes staying on your feet and the need to address multiple attackers, and I'll bet Haganah does the same.

Skiprr wrote:Krav Maga emphasizes staying on your feet and the need to address multiple attackers, and I'll bet Haganah does the same.

Yes it does. I've trained enough Krav to know it does a decent job of teaching you how to escape from the mount and the guard...so you can get back to your feet and get away.

Haganah's philosophy on ground fighting is quite similiar... but more advanced (ie what to do if you're on the ground with someone who has a knife)

I'll second the recommendation for John Peek's Houston Haganah. It's a very practical system that doesn't depend on superior strength. It also doesn't pussy-foot around. It teaches very lethal empty-hand techniques.

As to John, he's a very patient and kind instructor with the safety of the students at the forefront. He folds in the knife fighting course as part of the men's training. Knife and gun defenses are taught to all.

My current schedule doesn't allow me to attend any more, but the website for the Houston group is http://www.fight4selfdefense.com/Home.html. The general website is http://www.fight2survive.com/fight-system.html

Keith

Why would I want to learn to fist fight? Thats the reason I got a CHL

Russell wrote:I am interested in getting in to Krav Maga. I miss martial arts, I used to do Taekwondo for a while before moving to Huntsville to finish my degree.

Just need to actually.... you know... find a place and go.

After a quick web search, I found one Krav Maga place in Houston and one in League City. Though maybe you already did this.

I checked the main Haganah site, and found four in the greater Houston area (including the I-45S location referenced earlier), so there might be one near you or your place of work.

marksiwel wrote:Why would I want to learn to fist fight? Thats the reason I got a CHL

I wonder whether this was truly posted in jest.

I believe that learning to use a weapon should be subordinate to learning to fight and survive without one, especially with all of the places posted with 30.06, proliferation of screening for weapons, and homicidal maniacs choosing "gun-free zones" as venues for their mayhem.

I have considered posting more on the contents of this thread, but . . .

Paladin wrote:

Abraham wrote:Presumably, with Haganah you aren't inculcated with something similar to the folderol of the Asian based martial arts, i.e., having to call the instructor Sensei and go through the rigamarole of bowing and generally required to act as if you're not American?

I would be interested if all that kind of hoopla is not present and simply learn the various fighting techniques.

I did quite a bit of boxing (not to mention street fighting) as a younger guy, but years ago the first class I attended in martial arts turned me off with their emphasis on force feeding an entirely different culture as a big part of the training.

I'm not interested in becoming a monk or it's equal from some other culture as part of the training program.

No "sensei" stuff or bowing or "un-American" stuff in Haganah. Houston Haganah is probably a bit different than other Haganah classes as the instructor is shamelessly Christian and there are prayers said at every class.

My personal opinion is that you can refer to this "foreign-influence" stuff as superfluous when it comes to learning how to fight and defend yourself. But the whole reasoning behind it is to instill a sense of discipline in both your physical and mental outlook on training. Take a look at Tai Chi for example.
I agree that if you want to go and learn how to defend yourself, or go be a tough-guy/gal or you simply don't give a rats-patootie about other aspects of physical and character building, than yeah, go take those cool courses with neat names. If you want to learn more, use those damn foreign-influence "arts".

Purplehood wrote: My personal opinion is that you can refer to this "foreign-influence" stuff as superfluous when it comes to learning how to fight and defend yourself. But the whole reasoning behind it is to instill a sense of discipline in both your physical and mental outlook on training. Take a look at Tai Chi for example.
I agree that if you want to go and learn how to defend yourself, or go be a tough-guy/gal or you simply don't give a rats-patootie about other aspects of physical and character building, than yeah, go take those cool courses with need names. If you want to learn more, use those darn foreign-influence "arts".

Good points.

yerasimos wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Why would I want to learn to fist fight? Thats the reason I got a CHL

I wonder whether this was truly posted in jest.

Marksiwel, I'm kinda leanin' toward thinking that was tongue-in-cheek. If it in fact wasn't and you'd like a couple more reasons than yerasimos gave, PM me and I'll send you a link to the course material I handed out for the clinic I taught at the Texas CHL Forum Day last October, titled "An Introduction to ECQ Defensive Skills for the CHL Holder." By no means authoritative, but its 30+ pages may be food for thought.

Skiprr wrote:

yerasimos wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Why would I want to learn to fist fight? Thats the reason I got a CHL

I wonder whether this was truly posted in jest.

Marksiwel, I'm kinda leanin' toward thinking that was tongue-in-cheek. If it in fact wasn't and you'd like a couple more reasons than yerasimos gave, PM me and I'll send you a link to the course material I handed out for the clinic I taught at the Texas CHL Forum Day last October, titled "An Introduction to ECQ Defensive Skills for the CHL Holder." By no means authoritative, but its 30+ pages may be food for thought.

It was tongue and cheek. I've actually been thinking of taking a Crab-mc-gah class(No Idea how to spell that).
Anyone have any idea of fighting for those of us in Poor Shape and aren't very flexible and really dont want to screw around with the Karate Kid stuff?

marksiwel wrote:

Skiprr wrote:

yerasimos wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Why would I want to learn to fist fight? Thats the reason I got a CHL

I wonder whether this was truly posted in jest.

Marksiwel, I'm kinda leanin' toward thinking that was tongue-in-cheek. If it in fact wasn't and you'd like a couple more reasons than yerasimos gave, PM me and I'll send you a link to the course material I handed out for the clinic I taught at the Texas CHL Forum Day last October, titled "An Introduction to ECQ Defensive Skills for the CHL Holder." By no means authoritative, but its 30+ pages may be food for thought.

It was tongue and cheek. I've actually been thinking of taking a Crab-mc-gah class(No Idea how to spell that).
Anyone have any idea of fighting for those of us in Poor Shape and aren't very flexible and really dont want to screw around with the Karate Kid stuff?

"Crab-mc-gah" = Krav Maga

If the BG's get the drop on you, sometime you have to fight to get the chance to draw your weapon.

If you want to learn how to fight quickly... Krav or Haganah are great places to start.

I know some older folks that are into Jui-jutsu or aikido. Both are good, but I've never seen a system as comprehensive as Haganah

Older-folks? /headshake

You do realize that Jui-Jitsu is an older form of martial arts that has been superseded by Kodokan Judo and the like?