TexasCHLforum.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH3wWVQZaq0

This case recently concluded in Lucas County, OH (Toledo area).
The officer was found guilty and will face up to 11 years in prison.

The LEO in question made a traffic stop on 2 speeding motorcyclists
at 216 AM. This LEO was a reserve officer, indicating that he may
not have been as experienced as full time LEO's. The town in
question is Ottawa Hills, Ohio which for some reason, has a huge
number of police videos on TruTV and Youtube. It is just west of
the City of Toledo.

One biker was surprised by the red and blues, and drove over a traffic
island. The other biker, a 24 year old, stops, sits on his bike, waiting
for the LEO. He turns to look back and the officer shoots him one time
in the back. The officer claims that he thought the biker was reaching for
a weapon. The biker was unarmed.

The biker's spine was severed by the shot. He lived but is now wheelchair-
bound.

The LEO made a procedural mistake in that he did not turn off his siren,
which would have enabled the biker to hear his lawful commands.

The LEO appeared to drastically misinterpret the biker and shot him without
cause.

The LEO also shot this biker when the LEO's fellow officer (in another cruiser)
and the other biker were behind the man he was targeting. If his shot had
been off a little, he might have hurt one of the other parties.

The video in this link is taken off a screen in the court room but you can find
a better version, if you want to search a bit.

SIA

Words can not express my feelings on seeing that. I have a son about that age. There was nothing in the kid's attitude or behavior to suggest he was pulling a gun. he was just sitting there waiting for the officer. Kids that age have no sense of danger from their actions. We seem to see this all too often that some officers become so threatened when someone does no instantly comply with orders, that they jump to a reaction that is far too extreme. What if the kid was deaf, had his i-pod blaring in his ears, or as pointed out, simply could not hear a thing over a blaring siren?

Any CHLer having done that would likely be held up as a prime example of why people don't have the brains to carry guns around. What an embarrassment to every person carrying a badge that this poorly trained fearful officer was loose on the public. What a tragedy for the families and the victim.

I personally am reminded that fear (or anger) can make you assume something that a cooler head would have seen differently. I'll try to keep that lesson in case someday I find myself in an adrenaline rush and someone's life depends on what I decide in a split second.

That definitely sucks for all involved. I can see where the officer saw a furtive movement - more recent training says to scan to the whole body and then close in on the hands - and this may have prevented the ofc from shooting. I and others could armchair quarterback but at the end of the day he made a split second decision and is now paying a hefty price for it. To me, this is one of the greatest dangers in police work, I can accept that I may get in fights and get cut up dealing with "clients." However, the bigger danger is in making a split second decision which could never be replicated and being wrong, with huge results. That is a bigger risk of the job.


Maybe a different perspective:

surprise_i'm_armed wrote: The LEO in question made a traffic stop on 2 speeding motorcyclists
at 216 AM.

I think traffic stop doesn't accurately depict what was going on, it was a pursuit of two motorcycles attempting to elude or even actively evading him. No idea why two bikers would run from the cops just after bar closing time....

surprise_i'm_armed wrote: One biker was surprised by the red and blues, and drove over a traffic
island.

Or was intoxicated and lost control his bike, crashing. The riders are lit up, and even receive audible warnings before the biker wrecks out.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote: The LEO also shot this biker when the LEO's fellow officer (in another cruiser)
and the other biker were behind the man he was targeting. If his shot had
been off a little, he might have hurt one of the other parties.

Unless I missed something the ofc was off screen to the left when the shots rang out. This puts him offset at an angle from his back up unit.

Also the speed at which the backup unit was there also indicates to me that the ofc had already reasoned that there was more going on than "just a traffic stop" and already had help on the way before he initiated a stop. There was two minutes (approx) (video time) between when he is following the bikes and when they speed off. Once the two bikes took off he activated his lights and then sirens to signal a stop and for safety as it quickly turned into a pursuit.

These aren't just my thoughts, they are in line with many people who have been in similar situations:
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=vQISMLM8FNI[/youtube]

TexasGal wrote:What an embarrassment to every person carrying a badge that this poorly trained fearful officer was loose on the public. What a tragedy for the families and the victim.

I personally am reminded that fear (or anger) can make you assume something that a cooler head would have seen differently. I'll try to keep that lesson in case someday I find myself in an adrenaline rush and someone's life depends on what I decide in a split second.

Can you please post your knowledge of this officer's training? I don't mean this rudely, however a cooler head might be in order for your criticism of a situation when you weren't there and haven't had similar background. Sort of the walk a mile in someone's shoes....I figure based on your last comment that I quoted you would be MORE understanding...not LESS of the officer's situation.

This reminds me (vaguely) of the Shreveport PD cell phone shooting. Though that was definitely a "cleaner" shoot.

Fortunately I learned a long time ago to keep an eye on who's behind me, and what LEO headlights generally look like.

Does anyone else have problems hearing people with your helmet on? I would, especially with a siren blaring right behind me.

Guess if I ever hang around long enough to get pulled over on a bike, I'll put my hands on my head and if I can't hear the commands of the officer I'll just tap my ears until he figures out how to turn off his siren.

Then there's always this approach:

Or, the officer in the back of that line will turn out in front of you and make you stop.

Partial Quote of gigag04:

TexasGal wrote:What an embarrassment to every person carrying a badge that this poorly trained fearful officer was loose on the public. What a tragedy for the families and the victim.

I personally am reminded that fear (or anger) can make you assume something that a cooler head would have seen differently. I'll try to keep that lesson in case someday I find myself in an adrenaline rush and someone's life depends on what I decide in a split second.



Can you please post your knowledge of this officer's training? I don't mean this rudely, however a cooler head might be in order for your criticism of a situation when you weren't there and haven't had similar background. Sort of the walk a mile in someone's shoes....I figure based on your last comment that I quoted you would be MORE understanding...not LESS of the officer's situation.

This reminds me (vaguely) of the Shreveport PD cell phone shooting. Though that was definitely a "cleaner" shoot.

I meant no offense. I was referring to someone else's post who stated the officer was not fully trained. I was not bashing police. If it sounded that way, I apologize. I admire you, but there ARE some who need better training or another line of work. I was coming from a position of having raised two sons, of knowing how they can impulsively do something stupid without one thought of what might come from it at first. Lets remember, the riders DID stop. They DID start to run, and then apparently thought better of it. They probably HAD been drinking adding drunk to young and dumb. The kid's hands were not visible. I don't see why it is OK to shoot someone whose hands you have not yet seen have a gun in them and who has not yet made a unmistakable threat. I am not pretending to be an expert. I do not have special knowledge of this event. I am looking at the same video you are. I am also a mom, a woman with a measure of common sense, and a love of watching hundreds of police videos of stops just like that one where the stupid kid went home at the end of the day and the officer still has his job and his freedom. Again, I meant no insult to the fine men and women who face the underbelly of our society every day. I am on the side of officers, but it would be great if that kid had gotten to get a ticket instead of a bullet and it at least LOOKS like better training and a cooler head would have resulted in that far happier ending.

Does anyone else have problems hearing people with your helmet on? I would, especially with a siren blaring right behind me.

He wasn't wearing a helmet, but with the siren blaring, I don't think it would be possible to understand any verbal instructions. The expert witnesses made a big deal out of the fact that he didn't put his hands up. I can't see why he would have thought to do so, especially if he couldn't hear the officer.

gigag04 wrote:That definitely sucks for all involved. I can see where the officer saw a furtive movement - more recent training says to scan to the whole body and then close in on the hands - and this may have prevented the ofc from shooting. I and others could armchair quarterback but at the end of the day he made a split second decision and is now paying a hefty price for it. To me, this is one of the greatest dangers in police work, I can accept that I may get in fights and get cut up dealing with "clients." However, the bigger danger is in making a split second decision which could never be replicated and being wrong, with huge results. That is a bigger risk of the job.

Do you see how the fact that there are errors made during that split second decision making might frighten those you interact with? Maybe they will act nervous or scared?

Making the wrong decision can cost you your job, but it costs innocent lives sometimes too. Officers accept the risks to their lives, those you interact with are not usually given the choice.

So, disobeying an order is justification for the use of deadly force? I don't think so. This guy did nothing that we could see from this video that was threatening. Two sets of rules?

Not justified. Any way you try to explain it.

gigag04,

Do any officers ever draw taser first in a situation like this? All officers I've seen have them standard issue, but how would non-lethal means play into de-escalation of this type of stop?

If anyone is so convinced that the use of Deadly force is that immediate where they draw and shoot, then why use an intermediate weapon?

As far as those who say not justified - it's easy to come to that conclusion on "Monday"

The situation must be judged from totality of the cirumstances available to the person at the time. This is also how a CHL would be viewed, however I think that the public has a lower expectation from a CHL than from an LEO.

gigag04 wrote:If anyone is so convinced that the use of Deafly force is that immediate where they draw and shoot, then why use an intermediate weapon?

I only meant to ask what the SOP is for using non-lethal weapons in a situation that is sketchy like this. I think we all agree that the officer rushed to his decision, but to prevent a situation like this, shouldn't he have a taser drawn? From youtube videos I've seen on a stationary target like the biker the time it takes to neutralize a subject is nearly identical.

For the record I'm not armchair QBing this, I just want to know what options are practically available to LEOs in future encounters, hindsight is 20/20 after all.

It probably varies a great deal...I won't get into specifics for agencies that I'm in or those around me, but the reasonable and prudent standard will trump all.

*IF* the officer saw something to him that indicated gun, then he responded reasonably, in my opinion. He was obviously terribly wrong, and will suffer the consequences....but something projected to him "GUN" and he reacted. That's the best answer I can give (I know it's not a great one...but it's the real one).

Those that are saying "he shot him for not doing anything" are not giving the subject a fair treatment. The officer had to make a split second decision on the totality of the circumstances at hand factoring in: time of day, pursuit of fleeing suspects, demeanor, and actions, and a host of other factors. From what little else I've read others have testified that the characters were of an unsavory nature. This may be one more piece of the puzzle that gets weighed out.

Nothing is black in white in this world, especially in the heat of the moment. Some of the comments here make it seem like the officer wouldn't take back that bullet if he had the chance? A disproportionate majority of LEO training is devoted to preparing for a moment like that. The stakes are extremely high and of course mistakes will be made.

I hope none of the people on this forum (or others or myself) are ever put in that same situation. Here's the shreveport video:
[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ruQmcQgolM0[/youtube]