TexasCHLforum.com

http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Poor choices can change the tides and the actions of a few can affect many.

I'm going to look into these cases when I have time.

Saying a CHL holder would never hurt an innocent is a bit "No true Scottsmen". But those number are exceptionally low, compared to any other demographic including law enforcement officer.

It would be one thing if the VPC limited itself to demonstrating that less than 100% of CCW/CHL permit holders refrain from violating the trust placed in them by society; their examples do support that assertion. Then again, since this also applies to other groups in whom society places its trust--such as doctors, law enforcement officers, elected officials and representatives, accountants, and of course licensed drivers--this is hardly a revelation.

So the VPC has to go one further by claiming that issuing CCW/CHL permits actually makes it possible for permit holders to commit homicides they would otherwise not have been able to. But the VPC then includes cases that are irrelevant to that latter premise, such as CCW/CHL permit holders committing homicides in places where their permits were not valid (Aubrey BERRY, who committed a homicide in California, where his Georgia Firearms License was not valid), in locations where they wouldn't have needed a CCW/CHL permit to possess a firearm (every homicide that occurred in the permit holder's home), and permit holders who didn't use a concealable firearm to commit the homicide (Tony VILLEGAS, who killed a friend of his estranged wife by strangling her).

There are cases counted in which the CHL permit holder did not directly shoot anyone (David NESBITT, whose son shot himself with a loaded gun he'd found in a closet), who only shot themselves (Marc KIDBY), or indeed, did not possess a CCW/CHL permit at all (Richard TAUCH, who possessed a California "Security Guard Firearm Permit," which only permits open carry while in uniform).

I think VPC forgot to add a few stats (From FBI Crime Stats)

* An estimated 1,382,012 violent crimes occurred nationwide in 2008, showing a decrease of 1.9 percent from the 2007 estimate.
* The 2008 estimated violent crime total was 1.6 percent above the 2004 level but 3.1 percent below the 1999 level.
* There were an estimated 454.5 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2008.
* Aggravated assaults accounted for 60.4 percent of violent crimes, the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement. Robbery comprised 32.0 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.4 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2008.
* In 2008, offenders used firearms in 66.9 percent of the Nation’s murders, 43.5 percent of robberies, and 21.4 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapon data are not collected for forcible rape offenses.)


NOTE the stats above are stats for 2008 only. VPC's stats are a running total from 2007-present.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... rt2007.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

0.2612% is quite low. The way the VPC puts it sounds convincing and could influence voters who have not taken the time to research the facts.

Through the years, I’ve seen the pendulum swing both ways and rights that we currently enjoy weren’t available 20 years ago. Of the cases I’ve looked up, IMO it sounded like they would have occurred anyway regardless.

I just want the pendulum to stay where it is for awhile. I’ll do my part to make the best choices I can with the responsibility soon to be granted to me and I will, in no way, allow my actions to help take any rights away from anyone else.

PRO wrote:http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Poor choices can change the tides and the actions of a few can affect many.

I'm going to look into these cases when I have time.

Given the source, I'd guess "no."

What prize do I get?

Hmm.. I think I had the wrong reaction from that VPC was hoping for...

I saw those numbers, and immediately thought, "Wow, that's it? That's pretty darn good, considering how many hundreds of thousands of Permit holders are out there!"

Only then did I realize what they were trying (but failing) to say.

dicion wrote:Hmm.. I think I had the wrong reaction from that VPC was hoping for...

I saw those numbers, and immediately thought, "Wow, that's it? That's pretty darn good, considering how many hundreds of thousands of Permit holders are out there!"

Only then did I realize what they were trying (but failing) to say.

(emphasis added)

Best estimates put the number of CHL / CCW / LTCF / etc holders at 6M. (There are 1.5M just between FL & TX who make those numbers readily accessible.)

PRO wrote:http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm

Poor choices can change the tides and the actions of a few can affect many.

I'm going to look into these cases when I have time.

Here is a good place to start:

http://www.campuscarry.com/opponents/#content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay specific attention to these articles:

By John Lott: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/ ... g/#content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By John Lott: http://biggovernment.com/jlott/2010/07/ ... dgun-laws/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By me: http://www.campuscarry.com/2010/06/14/t ... t/#content" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other rebuttals to the Violence Policy Center are also worth reading.

Hmm...

I find 402,914 Texas CHL as of 12/31/09, and 747,514 Florida CWL as of 8/31/10.

Not quite 1.5M

(We have to catch up!)

The VPC twists their representation of the stats to look like Concealed Carry holders are worse than they are (VPC's real goal to defame CHL's). You need to read the vignettes on the total people in these counts. They include unresolved potential self-defense shootings, as well as negligent discharge shootings and individual suicides. The way they portray their data and display their numbers make the number look larger than it really is.

As others have stated, if you take the ratio of these actual convicted of murder (not accidental or pending cases that may be ruled justifiable or individual suicides) then the real numbers are EXTREMELY low for anyone committing murder by a CHL holder.

sjfcontrol wrote:Hmm...

I find 402,914 Texas CHL as of 12/31/09, and 747,514 Florida CWL as of 8/31/10.

Not quite 1.5M

(We have to catch up!)

Woops, I misquoted myself.. thanks for the catch!

from 2008..

Ashlar wrote:315k in TX

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... tr2008.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

675k valid in FL

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

257k valid in TN

http://www.tennessee.gov/safety/stats/D ... Change.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

142k in Ohio (2008 only)

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/file ... ual-Report" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

22k in Kansas

http://www.ksag.org/page/concealed-carry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

13k in ND

http://www.ag.state.nd.us/BCI/CW/TotalCWPIssued.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

56k in MN

http://www.bca.state.mn.us/CJIS/Documen ... Report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

27k in LA

http://www.lsp.org/pdf/chAnnualReport07-08.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's 1.5M right there, and that was only the states that made getting the number fairly easy, and not the most populous states.

well.. 1.5 million is Fifteen Hundred Thousand!

That's still 'Many hundreds of thousands!' Right?

The VPC has a history of playing fast and loose with the facts. Very little of what they report can even pass a basic data review - or, it just does not correspond with the actual facts. VPC is just like a lot of other organizations that exist in this coutry (and elsewhere), their real sole mission is to milk as much support dollars from trusting and uninformed folks as possible and use it to pay the salaries of the executive officers. The only recourse is to provide accurate reporting to those that have bought into the "big lie". Tell em to give their money to the Salvation Army instead...

Reading the VPC facts I could extrapolate that I caused all global warming by heating up a pop tart in my toaster this AM.