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Within several threads, there has been questions regarding the point it is lawful to use the threat of force (i.e. drawing your weapon) to stop an act in process. I, thankfully, haven't been in an SD situation before. But run through scenarios in my mind, as many do.

One that comes to mind is someone approaching with uncertain intentions and no visible weaponry. As they get closer, I imagine my left hand going up and out and yelling "STOP". Every-time I picture this, I also picture my right hand going under the him of my shirt and coming to rest on the pistol grip. Obviously, this would depend upon how far away the individual was - but assuming they were close enough that I wouldn't want to wait until after they ignored the command to get a drawable grip.

I have practiced this as well, and I am reliably able to clear my shirt and get a solid grip on the handle. My shirt still obstructs the view of the handle from the front - in fact only a slight bit of the grip is visible from the side view.

So my question is where do you think this action would fall on the continuum of 'threat of force'? Would this also be considered un-concealing? Even if the gun is not visible from the front, its pretty obvious what my hand is on.

Shouting Stop, do work most of the time. There might be the need to keep a safe distance rather than resorting to hasty reach for your firearm. What you did is you revealed your hand prematurely. Awareness, Awareness!

So my question is where do you think this action would fall on the continuum of 'threat of force'?

After raising your hand and saying something like, "That's close enough," without a satisfactory response, checking your hardware is reasonable.

Would this also be considered un-concealing?

Not by me, but I'm not going to be investigating.

There are two categories of crooks (at least). One is so dirty, on parole or probation or carrying drugs, that they want no police attention. The other will call in with a bogus story.

One time when I seriously thought I might be mugged, back in 1996, I put my hand very firmly into the pocket of my bomber jacket. The wayward youth heard their mommas callin'. I considered that a win-win situation. No one was hurt. No laws were violated. Maybe a lesson was learned. Maybe two.

- Jim

Beiruty wrote:Shouting Stop, do work most of the time. There might be the need to keep a safe distance rather than resorting to hasty reach for your firearm. What you did is you revealed your hand prematurely. Awareness, Awareness!

seamusTX wrote:After raising your hand and saying something like, "That's close enough," without a satisfactory response, checking your hardware is reasonable.

So you are both saying, is not at the same time. In my head, I picture it as one motion - left hand goes out, right hand finds bottom of hem and then grip.

But again, in my head - in this scenario, potential BG is already a little too close. If he keeps coming after "STOP", its only another half second to one second and I am drawing anyway.

But what I probably don't want to do is make that the 'habit'. Actually, the more I think about it, it seems like it would be pretty hard to NOT to get my hand on the grip. I probably should practice issuing a halt command WITHOUT letting my hand get on the grip.

The tricky point, say the subject who is approaching you has no hostile intentions, unarmed and day dreaming. You perceive him as potential threat. Not a threat yet, but a potential threat. Let us say he figured out that you are reaching for a firearm and got scared, run away, called 911 and least you have to do is a lot of explanations.

The moment you see a deadly weapon, bat, knife, rock, steel pipe, gun, whatever, then hostile intentions are present.

You can legally scratch yourself under your clothing. It's not considered polite, but so what?

In my opinion, the point is to keep it discreet but meaningful to those who know what they are looking for when they choose a victim.

As usual, IANAL, YMMV, etc.

- Jim

IMO, reaching for and gripping your handgun could be seen as a threat of force, however, the spit second it buys you if the situation goes south could also save your life.

The smarter of the crooks, (I know, I know), will recognize that you’ve just reached for a weapon and might disengage for a softer target, If, in fact it turns out to be nothing. Having yelled ‘stop’ will more than likely alarm the other person and they will either think you’re paranoid or that they’ve caused you alarm. Either way, I’m sure they would understand.

This is one of the reasons I choose not to carry where my weapon would be exposed when I’m gripping it.

Mileage may vary but I found that when my alert level goes up (not orange or red), my hand hangs but drifts backwards a little. I have found that this practice allows me a gradual OR rapid escalation as necessary. If I am carrying tucked in, I simply hook a thumb in my belt line so that I can grab then retrieve the weapon with a minimum of movement. I almost certainly have to be at least a level orange before I'm tickling the grips.

Added in edit: I thought about it and sometimes I have my fingers in the front pocket, under the hem of the shirt when in a situation garnering a higher SA. It is about 1.5 seconds from there to sight picture.

I imagine my left hand going up and out and yelling "STOP".

IMHO I would say if you don't have time to give any other warning you are probably correct in placing your hand on your weapon. Now I wouldn't just go around grabbing my gun every time someone got close to me but rather make sure that your able to control the situation if something does arise. I try to make sure that if someone is close that makes me feel uncomfortable I keep the weak side closest to them that way it might give me the extra second to draw if I have to defend myself. It also allows me use my weak hand to defend from strikes or to try to keep them back far enough to allow me to draw my weapon. I personally think that your posture can say a lot to someone if you go from casual to a defensive posture while giving your first verbal command alerting that person you are prepared if they have ill intentions. Hopefully they don't and it's you just being "paranoid" but in any case you were ready. In the end every situation will be different and it's hard to be prepared for every situation.

I personally do not see this as a problem.

You might do the very same thing while unarmed as a possible means of making the other individual stop and think. Once a weapon is actually produced is when the threat of force actually occurs in my mind. Until then, it is only a possibility/suggestion of force.

The one time I had to issue a STOP command since getting my CHL my hand was firmly on the grip of my XD-40. It was exactly as you're picturing: left hand out in a STOP gesture, right hand under my cover shirt gripping my pistol ready to draw, as I'm yelling (yes, yelling) at him to "STOP! WALK AWAY FROM ME RIGHT NOW!".

This is why everyone should duracoat their weapon bright pink/orange/purple/red/something

"He pulled his gun!"

"Oh yea? What color was it?"

"Oh... Black... or silver... or maybe both.."

"Try Neon Green. You're under arrest for a false report."

Great topic!

Something else to keep in mind.
The person that you're focused on in that very moment might not be the only person that bears watching.
Don't get tunnel vision. Check around you for other possible threats and an escape route if need be.

Addressing the issue of not letting your opponent not see your gun...

Think about this..assuming you are right handed.

Left hand goes up with halt gesture accompanied by verbal commands and scanning the area.
Simultaneously, your body rotates right by a few degrees to obscure any view of your right hand gripping your firearm.
This way you've made your intentions clear without displaying a weapon.

USA1 wrote: Left hand goes up with halt gesture accompanied by verbal commands and scanning the area.
Simultaneously, your body rotates right by a few degrees to obscure any view of your right hand gripping your weapon.
This way you've made your intentions clear without displaying a weapon.

(This assumes right handed draw, reverse for left handed)

If you are facing a single target, You should almost always turn almost fully sideways. Do this by taking a step back with your right leg, and rotating your front leg to the side.
Most people will actually do this instinctively if they think they are going to be in some sort of confrontation.

This does multiple things:
It places space between the potential threat and your drawing hand, allowing you more room and time to draw should you need to, and making it harder for them to stop you, as well as making their horizontal target smaller.
Should they lunge at you with a knife, they will be more likely to strike you in the side, or your outstretched arm, than in the chest.
Should they shoot at you, you are a harder target to hit, sideways, than full front on.

It shows a more 'defensive' posture to the potential attacker, making them potentially reconsider.

You are also more balanced, and capable of taking force and not being knocked over from their direction in this position.

Personally, if the threat is that imminent, then I'm willing to live with the risk of legal liability if putting my hand on my gun buys me .5 seconds of reaction time. I also would likely rotate my body to present weak side to the other person; partly to obscure the gun while still telegraphing intent to defend with a firearm, and partly to put as much distance between the other guy and my gun as possible as a retention strategy.

Also, this is why I like shoulder holster carry in cold weather. It lets you get you hand on your gun while still keeping the gun concealed, and while still telegraphing a serious "come no closer" message. Shoulder holster carry has other compromises, but in this particular application, I think it is actually superior to belt carry.