TexasCHLforum.com

I've read thru the thread on traffic stop procedures, suggestions, etc. However, I have the CHL, wife does not. On some errands she likes to drive and on longer trips shares the driving. Now, suppose she is doing the driving and gets stopped...she's not "carrying"...the pistol is in the car (in my pocket or hidden in the console).
From a legal standpoint, what are each of our responsibilities?
Alternatively, should she (courteously) inform; should I inform (as a courtesy)? Don't sweat it unless asked?

I guess I should have asked that question during renewal class, but...

A CHL holder is required to present the CHL only if asked for ID by an officer.

If your wife does not have a CHL and is driving with a gun in the center console, then she
is carrying under the MPA (Motorist Protection Act) and is not required to inform the
officer of the gun unless she is asked if there are any weapons in the vehicle.

USA1 wrote:A CHL holder is required to present the CHL only if asked for ID by an officer.

If your wife does not have a CHL and is driving with a gun in the center console, then she
is carrying under the MPA (Motorist Protection Act) and is not required to inform the
officer of the gun unless she is asked if there are any weapons in the vehicle.

Technically, she is not required to answer any questions regarding the contents of the vehicle,
or anything else for that matter (5th amendment... ). However, common sense suggests it would be a good idea to inform if asked.

ScottDLS wrote:

USA1 wrote:A CHL holder is required to present the CHL only if asked for ID by an officer.

If your wife does not have a CHL and is driving with a gun in the center console, then she
is carrying under the MPA (Motorist Protection Act) and is not required to inform the
officer of the gun unless she is asked if there are any weapons in the vehicle.

Technically, she is not required to answer any questions regarding the contents of the vehicle,
or anything else for that matter (5th amendment... ). However, common sense suggests it would be a good idea to inform if asked.

Perhaps "highly recommended" would have been a better term.

Only your wife is "detained" (or temporarily arrested - depending on which USSC justice is writing) during the traffic stop. In TX - our courts have held, that if the only grounds for the stop is the traffic infraction, the passengers are not detained. So - technically you don't even have to ID yourself. However, if there is reasonable suspicion to detain you too as a passenger, then you would.

Bottom line - there is no burden on her the non-chl driver to disclose a gun in the car, or on your person.

Keep in mind that all things are permissible but not all things are profitable...

Spontaneously volunteering the information is not a good idea, IMO. However, if the LEO asks about weapons, that would be the time for the driver to answer, if so inclined. As a passenger, I sit still and keep quiet unless the LEO speaks to me.

Completely agree w/ the above. I was stopped w/ Mom in the truck once. She did the same. Armed, kept quiet & hands in full view.

apostate wrote:Spontaneously volunteering the information is not a good idea, IMO. However, if the LEO asks about weapons, that would be the time for the driver to answer, if so inclined. As a passenger, I sit still and keep quiet unless the LEO speaks to me.

This.
In your position, I'd sit there with my mouth shut and my weapon concealed. If asked for your ID, give him your DL and CHL.
If the officer asks if there are weapons in the vehicle, I believe that honesty is the best policy, but I would not volunteer that information without being asked. If stopped for speeding or whatever, then whether or not there's a gun in the car is not pertinent, IMO. I would not tell the officer that I have compact discs in the car. I would not tell him I have a spare tire in the trunk. The fact that I have a gun is just as irrelevant. I do not intend to subject him to my music, or ask him to help me change a tire, nor do I plan to shoot him. So offering an inventory of the contents of the car would be silly.
I carry various tools and safety equipment in the vehicle. A pistol is just part of that normal cargo--an every day part of life, nothing to get excited about.
IANAL.

mgood wrote:

apostate wrote:Spontaneously volunteering the information is not a good idea, IMO. However, if the LEO asks about weapons, that would be the time for the driver to answer, if so inclined. As a passenger, I sit still and keep quiet unless the LEO speaks to me.

This.
In your position, I'd sit there with my mouth shut and my weapon concealed. If asked for your ID, give him your DL and CHL.
If the officer asks if there are weapons in the vehicle, I believe that honesty is the best policy, but I would not volunteer that information without being asked. If stopped for speeding or whatever, then whether or not there's a gun in the car is not pertinent, IMO. I would not tell the officer that I have compact discs in the car. I would not tell him I have a spare tire in the trunk. The fact that I have a gun is just as irrelevant. I do not intend to subject him to my music, or ask him to help me change a tire, nor do I plan to shoot him. So offering an inventory of the contents of the car would be silly.
I carry various tools and safety equipment in the vehicle. A pistol is just part of that normal cargo--an every day part of life, nothing to get excited about.
IANAL.

A CD or spare tire is less likely to be used to kill him/her and leave the family behind...just food for thought. If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

gigag04 wrote:Only your wife is "detained" (or temporarily arrested - depending on which USSC justice is writing) during the traffic stop. In TX - our courts have held, that if the only grounds for the stop is the traffic infraction, the passengers are not detained. ...

I thought the SCOTUS had more or less ruled, unanimously in fact, just the opposite -- that everyone in the car has been "seized" when an officer makes a traffic stop. Brendlin v. California overruled California's state supreme court contention that only the driver is "seized" during a stop, and therefore the passengers do not enjoy the same constitutional protections as the driver. I would think this would apply to Texas as well?

"When a police officer makes a traffic stop, the driver of the car is seized within the meaning of the 4th Amendment," Souter [author of the opinion] wrote. "We hold that a passenger is seized as well and so may challenge the constitutionality of the stop."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/washi ... us.html?hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/19 ... a-scotus19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gigag04 wrote:If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

I'm guessing the stinger missile launcher in the trunk is a no-no too?

gigag04 wrote:circus clowns

Fear of clowns?

Watch out!

gigag04 wrote:

mgood wrote:

apostate wrote:Spontaneously volunteering the information is not a good idea, IMO. However, if the LEO asks about weapons, that would be the time for the driver to answer, if so inclined. As a passenger, I sit still and keep quiet unless the LEO speaks to me.

This.
In your position, I'd sit there with my mouth shut and my weapon concealed. If asked for your ID, give him your DL and CHL.
If the officer asks if there are weapons in the vehicle, I believe that honesty is the best policy, but I would not volunteer that information without being asked. If stopped for speeding or whatever, then whether or not there's a gun in the car is not pertinent, IMO. I would not tell the officer that I have compact discs in the car. I would not tell him I have a spare tire in the trunk. The fact that I have a gun is just as irrelevant. I do not intend to subject him to my music, or ask him to help me change a tire, nor do I plan to shoot him. So offering an inventory of the contents of the car would be silly.
I carry various tools and safety equipment in the vehicle. A pistol is just part of that normal cargo--an every day part of life, nothing to get excited about.
IANAL.

A CD or spare tire is less likely to be used to kill him/her and leave the family behind...just food for thought. If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

I agree with you.
But what I'm trying to say is that the more we treat concealed weapons as normal, every day things, the more they become acceptable in the public eye, and the less restrictions we see on them.
My weapon poses no threat to you. (But I understand that you don't know that when you stop a random person for speeding or something.) Your weapons pose no threat to me because I have no intention of fighting you. We both keep our guns in our holsters and take care of business and then I go on my way and you go stop someone else. If you ask if I'm carrying, I'll answer truthfully. I have nothing to hide. But "I have a gun" is not something I'd pop off and say without being asked. It could be taken as a threat. I will keep my hands where they're visible and avoid making any sudden moves. No reason to get you excited. Maybe I was speeding. Maybe I swerved a bit when I was adjusting the radio or air conditioner and you pulled me over to see if I'd been drinking. Maybe my vehicle matches the description of another vehicle you're looking for. Whatever the reason you pulled me over, I'm pretty confident it can be resolved without violence, so the guns are just a non-issue. I'd be more worried about getting run over than shot, so when possible, I pull well off the road so that's one less thing for you to worry about. When an LEO pulls me over, I try to be as polite and cooperative as can be. I know you're not "out to get me." I know you're just doing your job and you want to go home safe at the end of the day. I also want to get to my destination safely. You and I are not foes. (I don't like getting a ticket any more than the next guy, but if I do, well, it happens. It's a pain, but certainly not anything to shoot someone over.)

ELB wrote:

gigag04 wrote:Only your wife is "detained" (or temporarily arrested - depending on which USSC justice is writing) during the traffic stop. In TX - our courts have held, that if the only grounds for the stop is the traffic infraction, the passengers are not detained. ...

I thought the SCOTUS had more or less ruled, unanimously in fact, just the opposite -- that everyone in the car has been "seized" when an officer makes a traffic stop. Brendlin v. California overruled California's state supreme court contention that only the driver is "seized" during a stop, and therefore the passengers do not enjoy the same constitutional protections as the driver. I would think this would apply to Texas as well?

"When a police officer makes a traffic stop, the driver of the car is seized within the meaning of the 4th Amendment," Souter [author of the opinion] wrote. "We hold that a passenger is seized as well and so may challenge the constitutionality of the stop."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/washi ... us.html?hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/19 ... a-scotus19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In Texas, barring a secondary detention, contacting passengers is treated as consensual contact. Other states have case law that requires passengers to ID themselves if asked.

gigag04 wrote:

mgood wrote:

apostate wrote:Spontaneously volunteering the information is not a good idea, IMO. However, if the LEO asks about weapons, that would be the time for the driver to answer, if so inclined. As a passenger, I sit still and keep quiet unless the LEO speaks to me.

This.
In your position, I'd sit there with my mouth shut and my weapon concealed. If asked for your ID, give him your DL and CHL.
If the officer asks if there are weapons in the vehicle, I believe that honesty is the best policy, but I would not volunteer that information without being asked. If stopped for speeding or whatever, then whether or not there's a gun in the car is not pertinent, IMO. I would not tell the officer that I have compact discs in the car. I would not tell him I have a spare tire in the trunk. The fact that I have a gun is just as irrelevant. I do not intend to subject him to my music, or ask him to help me change a tire, nor do I plan to shoot him. So offering an inventory of the contents of the car would be silly.
I carry various tools and safety equipment in the vehicle. A pistol is just part of that normal cargo--an every day part of life, nothing to get excited about.
IANAL.

A CD or spare tire is less likely to be used to kill him/her and leave the family behind...just food for thought. If I ask I usually ask about "guns, knives, improvised weapons, scud missles, circus clowns, or hand grenades" in the vehicle. Those that don't laugh are usually armed in some fashion.

...you left out trunk monkeys...I agree it's wise and courteous to tell the officer what he wanted to know when he asks about weapons...after all, we're on the same side...aren't we?!!! Most cops can smell a lie and spot a "guilty' look...why make him suspicious...