TexasCHLforum.com

There've been a number of threads lately in which there were 2 assailants with guns flanking a victim. This creates a conflict on drawing and shooting because shooting one leaves you open to being shot at by both. I know there are self-defense handbooks out there which a number of people here have read. My list of books I need to read is already pretty extensive, so I'm unlikely to get to Ayoob's or similar books any time soon. I'm hoping those of you with knowledge and/or experience will share some primers on how to handle a situation when a victim is flanked by two or more gunmen, especially when the victim has others such as children or dependent elderly with him or her.

Robbers set trap for Cedar Park drivers.......
Gunmen on either side of a woman's vehicle as she pulls up to her subdivision, the entrance of which the gunmen blocked by landscaping pavers.

Good Videos of Two Dallas Robberies...
In one robbery, the gunmen are right and left of the store clerk and a customer is caught in between. In the other robbery, one gunman is in front of the counter and one is behind.

My Daughter Was Mugged
Woman confronted by two armed masked men at night in a parking lot as she's getting out of her car. They'd blocked her vehicle in with their own.

Milam Co.: Woman killed over Mustang car
Woman answered her door to two teens and a shotgun blast, which was closely followed by a second shot. The teens murdered her in order to steal her vehicle.

1) Awareness
2) Do not corner yourself.
3) Make space, seek cover.
4) Draw and Engage identified armed BGs.
5) Double tap each, repeat as needed.

Run like the wind.

I have two hands therefore two guns

Seriously I don't know what I would do.
I have however practiced drawing both simultaneously and pointing at my flanks. Only on dry practice though.
I guess I would pray to the Lord and draw both.
I think I should pack up my movable Target stands and head to my range to see if I could make the hits that way.

If I was surprised by two attackers and at a disadvantage by not anticipating this, I would give them my wallet or whatever it is they are demanding and hope that would satisfy them.
All confrontations are unique.
The woman in Cedar Park found an out when they grabbed the wallet and were distracted.
Others are not so lucky.

I am curious, in addition to OP's question, would you defend anyway if you were in a position to, if the two assailants were in retreat with there gains and no longer in a position to offend.

Let's take the convenience store example from this thread: Good Videos of Two Dallas Robberies...

Woman is transporting Grandma to her doctor's office when Grandma announces that she has to go NOW. Woman pulls off and passes a few run down looking gas stations hoping to find a busy fast food restaurant, but there aren't any around and Grandma's threats are increasing with each place they pass. She chooses a nice looking gas station and gets Grandma out. She weighs which will be faster--Grandma's wheelchair or walker--and chooses the walker because then the woman's arms are free to hold the preschooler at all times. The three of them go in to the gas station and Grandma takes forever going. The woman maintains awareness as numerous people come and go and they're finally on their way to the door. As they reach the front of the store, two of the customers pull weapons. One is primarily covering the clerk who is being ordered to empty the cash register while the other is primarily covering the customers (all of whom were in positions to flee except the woman and her family who just happened to be caught between them), but the gunmen are a tad erratic and pointing everywhere. They're now in the position of the customer in the first video. (That customer chose to lie down prone on the ground with his hands over his head, IIRC.)

So what can the woman do? She has a preschooler on her hip who is heavy enough to need two hands to hold up for any length of time and is really getting too big to carry. She can access her concealed handgun, but can't quickly or easily handle the gun, carrying a preschooler one-handed, and run. She doesn't want to put down the heavy preschooler who won't be able to run as fast as she can and she can't run and leave Grandma, anyway. If she shoots at one, both gunmen will shoot back at her and her family who are now sitting ducks. It seems like she can't win as soon as the second gunman is introduced. What would the experts recommend a person in this situation do?

Hoi Polloi wrote:Let's take the convenience store example from this thread: Good Videos of Two Dallas Robberies...

Woman is transporting Grandma to her doctor's office when Grandma announces that she has to go NOW. Woman pulls off and passes a few run down looking gas stations hoping to find a busy fast food restaurant, but there aren't any around and Grandma's threats are increasing with each place they pass. She chooses a nice looking gas station and gets Grandma out. She weighs which will be faster--Grandma's wheelchair or walker--and chooses the walker because then the woman's arms are free to hold the preschooler at all times. The three of them go in to the gas station and Grandma takes forever going. The woman maintains awareness as numerous people come and go and they're finally on their way to the door. As they reach the front of the store, two of the customers pull weapons. One is primarily covering the clerk who is being ordered to empty the cash register while the other is primarily covering the customers (all of whom were in positions to flee except the woman and her family who just happened to be caught between them), but the gunmen are a tad erratic and pointing everywhere. They're now in the position of the customer in the first video. (That customer chose to lie down prone on the ground with his hands over his head, IIRC.)

So what can the woman do? She has a preschooler on her hip who is heavy enough to need two hands to hold up for any length of time and is really getting too big to carry. She can access her concealed handgun, but can't quickly or easily handle the gun, carrying a preschooler one-handed, and run. She doesn't want to put down the heavy preschooler who won't be able to run as fast as she can and she can't run and leave Grandma, anyway. If she shoots at one, both gunmen will shoot back at her and her family who are now sitting ducks. It seems like she can't win as soon as the second gunman is introduced. What would the experts recommend a person in this situation do?

In this case, best to run away from the scene as fast as possible. BG do not run after those who run, they expect surrender and compliance.

USA1 wrote:Run like the wind.

Nailed It!!!

Don't forget folks. While we are double tapping, tucking and rolling, seeking cover and any number of other really cool TV movie maneuvers, the bad guys are firing back at us. I have thought about this before. not just when two BG's are on me, but just one who has his gun pointed in my direction. If I were going to draw, I think I would definitely try to move sideways and if available, look for something close to dive behind. It is real hard to know what you would do until you are actually there and facing the situation. I figure getting shot would be a strong possibility if I chose to engage. I would have to be there to know if I believed they were going to shoot me or not. Which would be the only reason I would engae. Throwing the purse and running seemed a smart maneuver.

03Lightningrocks wrote:

USA1 wrote:Run like the wind.

Nailed It!!!

And ditch Grandma?

Hoi Polloi wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

USA1 wrote:Run like the wind.

Nailed It!!!

And ditch Grandma?

Having a loved one there would cause me to freeze somewhat, due of the fear of getting granny shot. My mom,(the only granny I know ), is a pretty awnry gal, she would probably go all Jesus on them and cause them to repent. I would just look at the bad guys and say, "don't look at me, you started it".

So while we are double tapping, tucking and rolling and seeking cover, we can save souls too!?

CHL=Concealed Hosanna Lisence

Don't tell my Grandma.

There are no great answers to the question posed.

There are a few that may or may not work in a given situation, but it's not a bad idea to keep them in your quiver.

If flanked by two, one option is to drop to one knee, engage one, and then turn and engage the other. This makes it momentarily difficult for them to both engage you without shooting at each other until they move - which they likely will. There's a small chance they might not realize this and solve one or both of your problems for you. Fast, accurate engagement of your targets will get you much better results than slow, precise, target range shots. There is obviously a very good chance that you will stop one or more of their rounds as well.

Running away is great if you have assessed the situation as one in which they won't pursue and won't shoot at a fleeing target because they're more focused on something else. It's not a good option if they're focused on harming you because as you run they can triangulate their fire on you without posing a danger to each other. That's good for them - and not good for you.

If you're faced by two but not flanked on both sides and your opponents are determined to engage you with gunfire, quick movement to a position where, from your point of view, one of them is behind the other allows you to engage the closer one while restricting the further one's ability to fire on you without hitting his accomplice. Once again, that may not stop him from shooting. Including a position of cover here helps a lot, but it may not be available.

Firing while moving to a better position is another option if there's nothing behind your opponents that absolutely positively needs to not be shot.

Real life isn't the movies. These are options that I keep in mind but wouldn't enjoy having to use and would do so only as a last resort. If they are used, regardless of whether or not you "win" the gunfight (or arrive at a "tie"), the chances of joining the casualty list would be very high.

Excaliber has some great ideas and tons more knowledge, training, and experience in such things than me. I'll just toss out my $.02 worth of tidbits to chew on:

1. Gas station robbery of clerk ... why would you be engaging at all? You're not a cop AND you have two dependants (grandma and toddler) with you. If the bad guys leave you alone and concentrate on robbery and non-contact crowd control them you should leave them alone too. Just because you CAN legally use your gun does not mean you MUST or even SHOULD use your gun.

2. If you truly are faced with a life-n-death situation where it's you (and/or your family) or them (bad guys) then leave grandma and toddler and move laterally to direct bad guys' attention and gunfire away from your loved ones BEFORE you engage. You want their shots coming toward you and an inanimate background, not you and your family or even other innocent bystanders. What are your chances of successfully executing these maneuvers and neutralizing both threats before you are shot? I dunno, probably not great and depends highly on your skill, training, reflexes, ability to shoot very fast with combat accuracy ... thus, only consider this when all other options are exhausted.

Alternate rounds between the two until the threat stops.