TexasCHLforum.com

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05 ... atriot-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“We’re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,” Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. “When you’ve got that kind of a gap, you’re going to have a problem on your hands.”

Snap E Tom wrote:http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05 ... atriot-act

“We’re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,” Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. “When you’ve got that kind of a gap, you’re going to have a problem on your hands.”

Secret laws are the essence of a police state.

Snap E Tom wrote:http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05 ... atriot-act

“We’re getting to a gap between what the public thinks the law says and what the American government secretly thinks the law says,” Wyden tells Danger Room in an interview in his Senate office. “When you’ve got that kind of a gap, you’re going to have a problem on your hands.”

Perhaps if the good democrat senator from Oregon used the same fervor and logic with critiquing Obama-Care, I’d pay attention to what he’s saying. As it is, I don’t trust him one bit. Since the meat of what he's talking about is a “secret”, no one can even say “boo” to his accusations!! No one can get proof one way or another. Doesn’t the fact that he’s spilling the beans on government secrets mean he’s breaking the law and belongs in prison??

Wiretaps, email snooping, bank records..... It's all software. Who do you think owns the internet? As an experiment, I've always wanted to start sending emails with "tells" in them to see how long it would take for me to get a knock on my door. If I knew I wouldn't go to prison, I think it would be an interesting excersize.

My point is, we need to stay one step ahead of our enemy. If that means the Uncle Sam's computer is going to be reading my boring and mundane daily emails, then whatever. I'm sure that's been going on since 9-11-2001 anyway. If the IRS wants to take a look at my books????? Yea, I'm sure I can stop them.... What difference does it make if it's homeland security or the IRS??

It is unfortunate that this is what's happening but wars are always lost to those who make up the rules.

Where do we find these guys??? What a bozo!!

TDDude wrote:
Perhaps if the good democrat senator from Oregon used the same fervor and logic with critiquing Obama-Care, I’d pay attention to what he’s saying. As it is, I don’t trust him one bit.

Why not? You know exactly where Wyden is coming from. Same thing with Sanders, Barney Frank, and Kucinich. I disagree with them on 99 issues, but at least I know they're principled. When that one issue comes along that we both agree on, I welcome the common ground. When I see people like Tom McClintock, Paul, Mike Lee, Sanders, Kucinich voting together for the same thing, I know it's a vote out of principle, and they should be admired.

Would you rather have a situation like we have now where there's a overwhelming bunch of R's in the Texas Legislature, but we can't count on the vast majority of them to support basic things like campus carry and parking lots?

Snap E Tom wrote: You know exactly where Wyden is coming from. Same thing with Sanders, Barney Frank, and Kucinich. I disagree with them on 99 issues, but at least I know they're principled.

Barney frank principled?

You lost me right there.

Snap E Tom wrote:

TDDude wrote:
Perhaps if the good democrat senator from Oregon used the same fervor and logic with critiquing Obama-Care, I’d pay attention to what he’s saying. As it is, I don’t trust him one bit.

Why not? You know exactly where Wyden is coming from. Same thing with Sanders, Barney Frank, and Kucinich. I disagree with them on 99 issues, but at least I know they're principled. When that one issue comes along that we both agree on, I welcome the common ground. When I see people like Tom McClintock, Paul, Mike Lee, Sanders, Kucinich voting together for the same thing, I know it's a vote out of principle, and they should be admired.

Would you rather have a situation like we have now where there's a overwhelming bunch of R's in the Texas Legislature, but we can't count on the vast majority of them to support basic things like campus carry and parking lots?

I see it as more of someone doing the right thing for the wrong reason.

What I admire and respect in a man is consistency in thought and actions. If a person has that, they have principles. I may not agree with them but I can respect them.

If this guy is serious about the government doing things behind closed doors, Obama-Care would be front and center. This yahoo is trying to tear down one of our best tools for fighting terrorism and those that support it. I would also sit up and listen a bit more if he had an alternative, which I don't think he does.

It takes no guts to stand up and say “SECRET POLICE STATE IS BAD!!" Of course it's bad. That’s like saying “CHILD MOLESTERS ARE BAD!!” How can that be argued?

But, Obama-Care and all the junk the big “O” has pulled these past 2.5 years will pull this country down faster than any punk with a bomb or a plane. Where is his critique of that????

And that is why I don’t trust his sincerity no matter how much I may or may not agree with this particular issue.

Obamacare is a terrible analogy. You can point to everything wrong with it, you can point to its trampling of state and individual sovereignty, you can point out how the implementation is basically "throw it all on the wall and let's see what sticks" and you would be right. However, the intention of Obamacare is to provide healthcare. We can sit around and agree how it's misguided and quote Hayek all day long. However, the vast majority of people will agree that the purpose of Obamacare is to provide healthcare.

The Patriot Act is completely different. This is a criminal justice and due process matter. This president and his predecessor continually play tricks to avoid judicial review. All supporters can say is that it's an "important tool to fight terrorism" without addressing the due process issues and the lack of presidential answers. Most importantly, the majority of Americans do not support it, but Congress keeps overwhelmingly ramming it through.

You can accuse Wyden of abusing the Commerce Clause. Sadly, in this day and age, that's actually debatable. However, it say that it's inconsistent for him to support Obamacare but not the Patriot Act is an incredible stretch.

Snap E Tom wrote: However, the intention of Obamacare is to provide healthcare. We can sit around and agree how it's misguided and quote Hayek all day long. However, the vast majority of people will agree that the purpose of Obamacare is to provide healthcare.

The intention of Obamacare is not to provide Healthcare. Even those bozos that created it can’t be that ignorant. If they were actually concerned with providing care for the very small percentage of US citizens who have no access to care, the plan would address them ONLY, and not force the entire population to tag along. Oh wait, they’re not. It seems like every friend of Obama is getting a waver. I don’t think any of those wavers are gonna make it to Texas though.

Do you really want every hospital in the US to be run like the VA hospitals? Have you ever been in one? Have you ever met a veteran who's been through it that would, if given a choice, go back? I have not and I get laughed at when I ask.

The intention of OC is to control 1/5th of the US economy. It's that simple. They took over the auto industry and the banking industry so why not the Health care industry??

As far as the patriot act is concerned, we'll simply have to disagree. We're either fighting a war or we're not. I firmly believe that we are in a war and by your assertion that the justice department needs to be in charge, it sounds like you're not. Therefore, we disagree. This war isn't about nations and armies but about state supported criminal gangs who can freely travel about our country using our own freedoms against us. To fight this, it takes new rules and until someone comes up with a more effective idea, this is the girl at the dance. She may not be the prettiest but she's ours and she's raising the kids. If the dems have a viable alternative, then they need to put up or shut up. They had two whole years to "fix it" and guess what, we still have Guantanamo and we still have the Patriot Act. I seem to remember the big O promising to get rid of both when he was a runnin. I guess he got a dose of reality when the men who actually know how this world works met with him behind closed doors.

If it wasn't for the Patriot Act, I'm pretty sure that the Houston ship channel would now be a radioactive pile of waste and the refineries only a smoking memory. Of course, since it never happened, and since the dems are quickly losing control, we hear a lot of smack about the rough new rules we have to live under. That's just my opinion and I have no way of proving it of course.

We'll also have to disagree that the majority of US citizens don't support the Patriot Act. If that were the case, and with our omnipresent 24 hour media, that one fact would be shouted from the rooftops 24/7. Since it's not, well.

This is fun!

TDDude wrote:

Snap E Tom wrote: However, the intention of Obamacare is to provide healthcare. We can sit around and agree how it's misguided and quote Hayek all day long. However, the vast majority of people will agree that the purpose of Obamacare is to provide healthcare.

The intention of Obamacare is not to provide Healthcare.

The intention of OC is to control 1/5th of the US economy. It's that simple. They took over the auto industry and the banking industry so why not the Health care industry??

YEP! Plain and Simple.