TexasCHLforum.com

Hello everyone.
I recently decided to get a gun for protection in case we all fall on harder times. My wife and I have struggled with the morality issues and I have done everything by the book so far such as basic safety class, tactical classes to be sure I understood what I was getting into and recently applied and tested for my CHL. I felt like it was a privilage and duty to do this and I assumed(I know) that the Great State of Texas felt the same.

Here is the problem. The law here in Texas is very specific as to the use of deadly force. The CHL instructor went the extra mile regarding when to use it and when it just doesn't make sense. Even when the law says you are justified.
What shocked me was when they explained why it may not make sense. Because in Houston ALL shootings have to go before the grand jury even when you weren't charged and the police determine that the shooting was justified. Even the police have to do this when they shoot on duty? Now I really don't have a problem with the authorities being completely sure but it is my understanding that the legal process to undergo all that scrutiny will cost me 10K to 15K on the average. So the law says you can shoot to protect your property but unless it isn't insured and and worth more than the legal fees will be you are advise to stay in the house and call 911.

So the legal community(politicians) passed laws to allow me to protect myself and my family but if I have to do it and by the book I have to create a financial hardship at best to defend myself in court ?

Please help me out with my thinking here. What have the rest of you CHL or not decided regarding the use of deadly force and the legal, financial aftermath?

There are firms that offer something like an insurance plan to cover you in the event of a shooting, I have yet to find one I really like however. For myself, I moved a sum of money into a Money Market that should cover the legal expenses in case I should ever need them, and it will stay there until I find a different solution.

I would have some sort of plan though, just hoping for the best is a bit contrary to me considering that I carry nearly everywhere I go.

slogan_98 wrote:Please help me out with my thinking here. What have the rest of you CHL or not decided regarding the use of deadly force and the legal, financial aftermath?

I have not done anything to prepare for it, to be brutally honest.
I think I, like most people, believe we should be prepared to defend ourselves, our families, etc, I also hope that I do things right to help deter the need to have to use force/deadly force.

I haven't thought about the cost of having to use my weapon (hopefully legally justified), but I have thought that if it came down to shoot, or die (or family dies), regardless of cost, I am shooting.
I will deal with the financial burden, but I would never be able to deal with choosing money over the life of my family.

Here's is my really basic take on this: 'Stuff' can be replaced; life can't.

So, unless my or my family or other person's life is threatened, then I will not be shooting to prevent loss of 'stuff'. I may use my firearm to insure that the threat does not progress from stealing to robbery or assault, but that would be it.

A good example is I come home to find my door open to the house. Discounting the pets, unless I have a family member in there, I will back away from the house and call police. If I see the person taking my television out of the house, I am NOT going to shoot them over taking 'stuff'. Besides, my television is not one of the new nice 3-D flat screens, and if they steal my old one, then I have an excuse to buy a new one!!

Keith B wrote:Here's is my really basic take on this: 'Stuff' can be replaced; life can't.

So, unless my or my family or other person's life is threatened, then I will not be shooting to prevent loss of 'stuff'. I may use my firearm to insure that the threat does not progress from stealing to robbery or assault, but that would be it.

A good example is I come home to find my door open to the house. Discounting the pets, unless I have a family member in there, I will back away from the house and call police. If I see the person taking my television out of the house, I am NOT going to shoot them over taking 'stuff'. Besides, my television is not one of the new nice 3-D flat screens, and if they steal my old one, then I have an excuse to buy a new one!!

I came very close a couple of years ago to having to use my firearm and the financial implications of that, had I actually needed to draw and pull the trigger, really hit me the next day. I signed up with the CHL Protection Plan after that encounter.

Keith B wrote:Here's is my really basic take on this: 'Stuff' can be replaced; life can't.

So, unless my or my family or other person's life is threatened, then I will not be shooting to prevent loss of 'stuff'. I may use my firearm to insure that the threat does not progress from stealing to robbery or assault, but that would be it.

A good example is I come home to find my door open to the house. Discounting the pets, unless I have a family member in there, I will back away from the house and call police. If I see the person taking my television out of the house, I am NOT going to shoot them over taking 'stuff'. Besides, my television is not one of the new nice 3-D flat screens, and if they steal my old one, then I have an excuse to buy a new one!!

Speaking of stealing....
But that's OK. I am not gonna shoot!

this time...

Stuff can be replaced!

Every situation is different and only you can decide when to shoot. Is someone entering you home through the window just to steal or harm you / family? Many on here talk about going through “What if” in their heads so when the need is there it is already thought out.

I got the opportunity to listen to Charles giving a Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws seminar. It was excellent!! He covers many things that allow you to know where you stand if you fire and suggests how to handle yourself with the LEOs that come on the scene.

Kirk wrote:I got the opportunity to listen to Charles giving a Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws seminar. It was excellent!! He covers many things that allow you to know where you stand if you fire and suggests how to handle yourself with the LEOs that come on the scene.

Where are these seminars held and who organizes them? I would like to go to this seminar, but I can't seem to find any info on it. I've checked the TSRA site and tried googling it to no avail.

whodat1 wrote:

Kirk wrote:I got the opportunity to listen to Charles giving a Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws seminar. It was excellent!! He covers many things that allow you to know where you stand if you fire and suggests how to handle yourself with the LEOs that come on the scene.

Where are these seminars held and who organizes them? I would like to go to this seminar, but I can't seem to find any info on it. I've checked the TSRA site and tried googling it to no avail.

When they're available, they will show up here on the calendar. There don't appear to be any scheduled at this time.

Also, Charles will make an announcement on the forum.

whodat1 wrote:

Kirk wrote:I got the opportunity to listen to Charles giving a Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws seminar. It was excellent!! He covers many things that allow you to know where you stand if you fire and suggests how to handle yourself with the LEOs that come on the scene.

Where are these seminars held and who organizes them? I would like to go to this seminar, but I can't seem to find any info on it. I've checked the TSRA site and tried googling it to no avail.

These are hosted in various locations and put on by Charles Cotton (our forum owner) and the Texas Firearms Coalition https://texasfirearmscoalition.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

slogan_98 wrote:Hello everyone.
I recently decided to get a gun for protection in case we all fall on harder times. My wife and I have struggled with the morality issues and I have done everything by the book so far such as basic safety class, tactical classes to be sure I understood what I was getting into and recently applied and tested for my CHL. I felt like it was a privilage and duty to do this and I assumed(I know) that the Great State of Texas felt the same.

Here is the problem. The law here in Texas is very specific as to the use of deadly force. The CHL instructor went the extra mile regarding when to use it and when it just doesn't make sense. Even when the law says you are justified.
What shocked me was when they explained why it may not make sense. Because in Houston ALL shootings have to go before the grand jury even when you weren't charged and the police determine that the shooting was justified. Even the police have to do this when they shoot on duty? Now I really don't have a problem with the authorities being completely sure but it is my understanding that the legal process to undergo all that scrutiny will cost me 10K to 15K on the average. So the law says you can shoot to protect your property but unless it isn't insured and and worth more than the legal fees will be you are advise to stay in the house and call 911.

So the legal community(politicians) passed laws to allow me to protect myself and my family but if I have to do it and by the book I have to create a financial hardship at best to defend myself in court ?

Please help me out with my thinking here. What have the rest of you CHL or not decided regarding the use of deadly force and the legal, financial aftermath?

My personal short form guideline that was arrived at after a great deal of thought is:

The firearm is a last resort tool to be used only when there is no other reasonable way to protect innocent life.

This has worked well for me in many encounters at all levels up and down the use of force spectrum over nearly 40 years of daily carry as both an LEO and a civilian

Yes, I know it's much more restrictive than what is allowed under Texas law. I like it that way. To my way of thinking, until that threshold is reached, I have other reasonable options available and I am morally (even if not legally) obligated to use them until it's clear they aren't sufficient to resolve a given threat.

The guideline is short enough to remember easily under extreme stress ( a point that's hard to appreciate until you've tried to remember all the elements of aggravated assault during one ), and to my knowledge it meets or exceeds all legal requirements everywhere in the U.S. It sets a standard for action that I can live with afterwards should the need ever arise.

It's also readily (though not cheaply) defensible in the courts, and is generally understandable to the good folks in the media and your neighbors as well. These are all important to what your life will be like after a deadly force encounter.

IANAL. Your mileage may vary.

Excaliber wrote:

slogan_98 wrote:Hello everyone.
I recently decided to get a gun for protection in case we all fall on harder times. My wife and I have struggled with the morality issues and I have done everything by the book so far such as basic safety class, tactical classes to be sure I understood what I was getting into and recently applied and tested for my CHL. I felt like it was a privilage and duty to do this and I assumed(I know) that the Great State of Texas felt the same.

Here is the problem. The law here in Texas is very specific as to the use of deadly force. The CHL instructor went the extra mile regarding when to use it and when it just doesn't make sense. Even when the law says you are justified.
What shocked me was when they explained why it may not make sense. Because in Houston ALL shootings have to go before the grand jury even when you weren't charged and the police determine that the shooting was justified. Even the police have to do this when they shoot on duty? Now I really don't have a problem with the authorities being completely sure but it is my understanding that the legal process to undergo all that scrutiny will cost me 10K to 15K on the average. So the law says you can shoot to protect your property but unless it isn't insured and and worth more than the legal fees will be you are advise to stay in the house and call 911.

So the legal community(politicians) passed laws to allow me to protect myself and my family but if I have to do it and by the book I have to create a financial hardship at best to defend myself in court ?

Please help me out with my thinking here. What have the rest of you CHL or not decided regarding the use of deadly force and the legal, financial aftermath?

My personal short form guideline that was arrived at after a great deal of thought is:

The firearm is a last resort tool to be used only when there is no other reasonable way to protect innocent life.

This has worked well for me in many encounters at all levels up and down the use of force spectrum over nearly 40 years of daily carry as both an LEO and a civilian

Yes, I know it's much more restrictive than what is allowed under Texas law. I like it that way. To my way of thinking, until that threshold is reached, I have other reasonable options available and I am morally (even if not legally) obligated to use them until it's clear they aren't sufficient to resolve a given threat.

The guideline is short enough to remember easily under extreme stress ( a point that's hard to appreciate until you've tried to remember all the elements of aggravated assault during one ), and to my knowledge it meets or exceeds all legal requirements everywhere in the U.S. It sets a standard for action that I can live with afterwards should the need ever arise.

It's also readily (though not cheaply) defensible in the courts, and is generally understandable to the good folks in the media and your neighbors as well. These are all important to what your life will be like after a deadly force encounter.

IANAL. Your mileage may vary.

To add yet another dimension to what Excaliber said, I have a CHL because we RV all of the country. Other than places like NJ or MD where I cannot carry anyway and where the self-defense laws are plain bizarre, the legal wording changes from State to State and many are no where near as liberal as Texas about deadly force use. Excaliber's approach means that I don't have to re-study the individual State codes every day we travel for the next State that we enter and hope that I can remember only the current one for where we are that day.

Crossfire wrote:

Keith B wrote:Here's is my really basic take on this: 'Stuff' can be replaced; life can't.

So, unless my or my family or other person's life is threatened, then I will not be shooting to prevent loss of 'stuff'. I may use my firearm to insure that the threat does not progress from stealing to robbery or assault, but that would be it.

A good example is I come home to find my door open to the house. Discounting the pets, unless I have a family member in there, I will back away from the house and call police. If I see the person taking my television out of the house, I am NOT going to shoot them over taking 'stuff'. Besides, my television is not one of the new nice 3-D flat screens, and if they steal my old one, then I have an excuse to buy a new one!!

Speaking of stealing....
But that's OK. I am not gonna shoot!

this time...

What if they are trying to steal your weiner dog?

Lots of information in this magazine.

Carry Concealed Magazine

http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/conceal ... chan=code1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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