TexasCHLforum.com

I am sure you all have heard this same story that modifications to a carry gun might be used against you in court. Ever since I have heard that though I have thought it didn't make since, I mean why is getting more reliable aftermarket parts bad? My question is, does anyone know of any case law to support this, or is it just some rumor that got started and spread like wildfire.

yes there is infact case law, look Mossad Ayoob and his interation with being a witness and specialist in several court cases. The prosucution or complanitant attorney can use almost any modification as an excuse to make the jury feel that the actor has modified his weapon in a manner calculated to make it more deadly. remember that most juries are made up of a mix of people and not all of them know didly about fire arms, they work on the OMG pirnciple.

Prosucutor: he used a bullett that was HAND loaded with BLACK TALON teflon coated lead projectiles that were made to be especially deadly

Jury: not saying a word but eyes go big round anime eyes and they all think that the defendant is automaticall guilty.

Prosucutor: and not only that ladies and gentlemen he had these deadly cop killer bulletts in a 357 MAGNUM pistol with the name of colt PYTHON, a very sinister deadly sounding name and made for ONE purpose and ONE purpose alone to KILL! and on top of that he had these here holes drilled in the barrell to help keep the gun on target so that he can KILL better.

Jury: that butthead is guilty !! period!!

you choose

I mean why is getting more reliable aftermarket parts bad?

It's not.

Not as long as they are fully functional and properly installed.

The prosucution or complanitant attorney can use almost any modification as an excuse to make the jury feel that the actor has modified his weapon in a manner calculated to make it more deadly.

And a good defense can show how modifications can improve performance, reliability, accuracy, and over all safety.

remember that most juries are made up of a mix of people and not all of them know didly about fire arms, they work on the OMG pirnciple.

Which can work to your advantage just as easily as it can for the state.

If it comes down to a court battle, a prosecutor will try to do pretty much anything to win their case, including questioning your firearm / ammo / training etc...

However, when it comes down to a deadly force encounter, I will try to do pretty much anything to save my life. Including tuning my gun and using after market parts that improve performance and reliability. I am willing to justify any modification in a court of law, I am not, however, willing to use a less effective defensive tool when my life may be on the line.

I won't speak for communist countries like CA and NY, but in Texas I don't think better sights or a different slide stop is going to make any difference. However, disabling a manufacturer's safety device or putting a "hair trigger" on a carry gun can and should hurt your case if you negligently shoot someone.

I just finished removing the Springer ILS MSH's from my new Ultra Compact and EMP, replacing with John Browning designed parts.

Those pesky things have a possibility of locking up the 1911 at exactly the wrong time!

I just don't buy into all the fear mongering of the Ayoob types. How many cases have been prosecuted against Texas CHL's (or any Texan) for use of a firearm that has been (legally) modified?

I think we take some of these stories from the "experts" as having some kind of mythical powers.

Humm, After hearing a high profile cases as seen in FL.. You never know what a Jury is going to think

For me a name brand like Glock, Springfiled , ect.. several other top manufacturers could be called in to state you can not improve on the performance and reliability. They would state they have lots of resources to make it perform and be reliable without any changes..

This is a choose each person has to decide, and if you want to help make some case laws..

I'm sure A lot has to do with what changes you make ?

Might be better to discuss what changes you would make, and example is like added a better hand grip, to me that would be better, but loading your own ammo P++++ could be not good.. any thoughts ?

BAT

mr surveyor wrote:I just don't buy into all the fear mongering of the Ayoob types. How many cases have been prosecuted against Texas CHL's (or any Texan) for use of a firearm that has been (legally) modified?

I think we take some of these stories from the "experts" as having some kind of mythical powers.

While I agree with the above quoted post, I also believe that lawyers will lie, cheat, and steal to win a case, and a "modified" gun just seems like it would make it easier for them.

I am a tinkerer, but I will not make any "performance enhancing" changes to my carry guns. My Kimber Ultra CDP came with a plastic mainspring housing and now has a stainless one, but most of my carrying is done with a bone stock S&W 637.

mr surveyor wrote:I just don't buy into all the fear mongering of the Ayoob types. How many cases have been prosecuted against Texas CHL's (or any Texan) for use of a firearm that has been (legally) modified?

It has been a while and I cannot quote the exact article. But I've read Ayoob cases that were in Texas and he made the exact point that people think if they are in a gun-friendly state they do not need to worry about an overreaching prosecutor. It can happen here - it can happen anywhere.

That said, I sure don't lay awake at night worrying about it.

Jumping Frog wrote:

mr surveyor wrote:I just don't buy into all the fear mongering of the Ayoob types. How many cases have been prosecuted against Texas CHL's (or any Texan) for use of a firearm that has been (legally) modified?

It has been a while and I cannot quote the exact article. But I've read Ayoob cases that were in Texas and he made the exact point that people think if they are in a gun-friendly state they do not need to worry about an overreaching prosecutor. It can happen here - it can happen anywhere.

That said, I sure don't lay awake at night worrying about it.

Is this the Article ? http://www.gunatics.com/forums/general- ... ayoob.html

BAT

JP171 wrote:yes there is infact case law, look Mossad Ayoob and his interation with being a witness and specialist in several court cases. The prosucution or complanitant attorney can use almost any modification as an excuse to make the jury feel that the actor has modified his weapon in a manner calculated to make it more deadly. remember that most juries are made up of a mix of people and not all of them know didly about fire arms, they work on the OMG pirnciple.

Prosucutor: he used a bullett that was HAND loaded with BLACK TALON teflon coated lead projectiles that were made to be especially deadly

Jury: not saying a word but eyes go big round anime eyes and they all think that the defendant is automaticall guilty.

Prosucutor: and not only that ladies and gentlemen he had these deadly cop killer bulletts in a 357 MAGNUM pistol with the name of colt PYTHON, a very sinister deadly sounding name and made for ONE purpose and ONE purpose alone to KILL! and on top of that he had these here holes drilled in the barrell to help keep the gun on target so that he can KILL better.

Jury: that butthead is guilty !! period!!

you choose

If you hired a cheap defense attorney who was wowed by those arguments and didn't rebut those easily demolished points for the jury, you would indeed be in trouble.

With a good defense attorney, a few sentences later the prosecutor would not be looking like a very smart man.

I truly believe that if it was a justified shoot, no modification is going to be an issue. Deadly force is just that... and if it was justified, no mod will make the perp "deader."

flechero wrote:I truly believe that if it was a justified shoot, no modification is going to be an issue. Deadly force is just that... and if it was justified, no mod will make the perp "deader."

With a "more lethal" firearm, you could kill someone twice!

Yeah I'm with Excaliber. Having sat in district court more than a few times, it's not something I worry about.

A good lawyer should be able to get around any of that garbage.