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I am not sure I agree with the tactics of this woman but it does prove a point. If what the Colorado woman did was felonious sexual assault, so is what the TSA agent did and has done to thousands of women. I don't wish assault on anyone, but perhaps just perhaps this TSA agent now knows what thousands of women have felt at her hands, except they did not get the satisfaction of seeing their assaulter get frog marched out and if they so much as protested the assault they had to endure they would be arrested (most likely for disorderly conduct or some other baloney charge).

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/07/18/l ... ping-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mamabearCali wrote:I am not sure I agree with the tactics of this woman but it does prove a point. If what the Colorado woman did was felonious sexual assault, so is what the TSA agent did and has done to thousands of women. I don't wish assault on anyone, but perhaps just perhaps this TSA agent now knows what thousands of women have felt at her hands, except they did not get the satisfaction of seeing their assaulter get frog marched out and if they so much as protested the assault they had to endure they would be arrested (most likely for disorderly conduct or some other baloney charge).

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/07/18/l ... ping-case/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It highlights the hypocrisy of the TSA, but two wrongs don't make a right. . .

That is why I don't know where I stand on this. This woman was assaulted by the TSA, probably more than once, and she assaulted them back. In football terms I would say "off setting fouls--no penalty--move on" By charging this woman the TSA is showing that they know what they are doing is sexual assault, and could in the end bite them in the tail.

mamabearCali wrote:That is why I don't know where I stand on this. This woman was assaulted by the TSA, probably more than once, and she assaulted them back. In football terms I would say "off setting fouls--no penalty--move on"

Do unto others and so on.

boba wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:That is why I don't know where I stand on this. This woman was assaulted by the TSA, probably more than once, and she assaulted them back. In football terms I would say "off setting fouls--no penalty--move on"

Do unto others and so on.

One more . They want to give her a felony for doing what they do to everyone else? Glad people are finally getting a little sick of the ridiculous amount of security theater we endure to travel "freely".

Although the TSA is an easy target and I have seen them do things that I have objected to (usually big men yelling at women for being nervous and not following directions perfectly) or patting down scared and crying children who are obviously not carrying bombs:

I will have to say the pat downs I have received, have always been with the back of the hand and have been done in a very professional manner. Normally they have said in advance before they have touched me exactly how they were going to do it, and where. Certainly no where near as intrusive as a doctor exam.

To just go and grab the privates of a TSA agent of the same sex for the hell of it, is out of line and should get them arrested.

There are other ways of expressing your displeasure with the TSA, write letters and vote.

write letters and vote.

Write letters to who? Vote for who? TSA is in charge of making their own rules, no checks and balances,, not writing laws that have a process.. And the People in charge of TSA were not voted in, they are political appointment's.

The people spoke, have spoken, are speaking, no one is listening to mere words, because words are easy to ignore.

philip964 wrote:Although the TSA is an easy target and I have seen them do things that I have objected to (usually big men yelling at women for being nervous and not following directions perfectly) or patting down scared and crying children who are obviously not carrying bombs:

I will have to say the pat downs I have received, have always been with the back of the hand and have been done in a very professional manner. Normally they have said in advance before they have touched me exactly how they were going to do it, and where. Certainly no where near as intrusive as a doctor exam.

To just go and grab the privates of a TSA agent of the same sex for the heck of it, is out of line and should get them arrested.

There are other ways of expressing your displeasure with the TSA, write letters and vote.

I object strenuously to the title of this thread.

I was about to challenge any of you to show one case where a TSA agent has grabbed any part of a passenger's body and twisted it, much less a breast. And I will still issue that challenge, not apocryphal, real, witnessed, and confessed to.

This is hardly a case of offsetting fouls, the TSA agents are doing a job to the best of their abilities, following rules promulgated by a bureaucracy they have no control over or say in, and they get roundly criticized for doing those jobs. These are not the dregs of the earth, they are just plain old folks like you and me, I know, I was one of them for more than three years. We were retired and laid off IT engineers, retired and laid off telecom engineers, medical discharged military, medical discharged cops, and a variety of others.

The agents are given specific guidelines for personal screening, where and what to touch and for how long and with what. Accusing them of sex abuse is the analog of anti-gun nuts accusing ALL CHL holders of being murderers and rapists because they carry guns. Are there a few bad apples? Of course, it's inevitable, just as there a few bad apple CHL holders, but to paint them all with the same broad brush is just as unfair to them as it is when one CHL gets caught carrying while intoxicated and we all get accused of being pistol packing drunks.

Overall, yes, TSA has made their own rules, within legislated guidelines, but the screeners are not the ones making them, and they are violating no one's rights, everyone who purchases airline tickets agrees to the search, if you don't like it, go some other way.

[quote="jimlongley"

I object strenuously to the title of this thread.

I was about to challenge any of you to show one case where a TSA agent has grabbed any part of a passenger's body and twisted it, much less a breast. And I will still issue that challenge, not apocryphal, real, witnessed, and confessed to.

This is hardly a case of offsetting fouls, the TSA agents are doing a job to the best of their abilities, following rules promulgated by a bureaucracy they have no control over or say in, and they get roundly criticized for doing those jobs. These are not the dregs of the earth, they are just plain old folks like you and me, I know, I was one of them for more than three years. We were retired and laid off IT engineers, retired and laid off telecom engineers, medical discharged military, medical discharged cops, and a variety of others.

The agents are given specific guidelines for personal screening, where and what to touch and for how long and with what. Accusing them of sex abuse is the analog of anti-gun nuts accusing ALL CHL holders of being murderers and rapists because they carry guns. Are there a few bad apples? Of course, it's inevitable, just as there a few bad apple CHL holders, but to paint them all with the same broad brush is just as unfair to them as it is when one CHL gets caught carrying while intoxicated and we all get accused of being pistol packing drunks.

Overall, yes, TSA has made their own rules, within legislated guidelines, but the screeners are not the ones making them, and they are violating no one's rights, everyone who purchases airline tickets agrees to the search, if you don't like it, go some other way.[/quote]


If you are not aware of the new TSA procedures they do indeed have the screener put the front of their hands on a woman's breast and push them up and separate them (twist). They also have the TSA agent put their hands along a person's leg and move up until they meet resistance (hit the pubic bone of a person) now on my body you have just pushed really hard on my genitals to do that. I have seen a TSA agent in a PSA show this very patdown and yes it is sexual assault--as this passenger has proved. If a police officer did this search without reasonable cause he would be the one facing charges. The passengers have not consented to this level of a pat down, coerced consent is not consent (and if you say--sorry bud that is one step too far, you get arrested).

If you are in need of evidence of TSA's new procedures assaulting people you could look at the ACLU's complaint page. They have hundreds of complaints about people being mishandled and flat out assaulted by the TSA, or you could just watch the evening new every night for a week or two. There seems to be stories every other day about TSA agents assaulting/stealing from air travelers.

As far as "don't like it don't fly" well the TSA has shown it's face at bus terminals, train terminals and once even at a prom. Pistole has said he would like to expand to places like malls--nice. So what will be the mantra then--"shopping is not a right it is a privilege--you have no right to get groceries!"

The "just doing my job mam" only goes so far. When it is putting your hands on another person's private parts, then while it may tenuously legal under a strange color of law (federal regulations enacted by appointed officials and not voted on by any legislature) for the time being for a TSA agent, it certainly is not right.

bronco78 wrote:

write letters and vote.

Write letters to who? Vote for who? TSA is in charge of making their own rules, no checks and balances,, not writing laws that have a process.. And the People in charge of TSA were not voted in, they are political appointment's.

The people spoke, have spoken, are speaking, no one is listening to mere words, because words are easy to ignore.

I suspect they will listen a little more in about 16 months.

jimlongley wrote:I object strenuously to the title of this thread.

I was about to challenge any of you to show one case where a TSA agent has grabbed any part of a passenger's body and twisted it, much less a breast. And I will still issue that challenge, not apocryphal, real, witnessed, and confessed to.

This is hardly a case of offsetting fouls, the TSA agents are doing a job to the best of their abilities, following rules promulgated by a bureaucracy they have no control over or say in, and they get roundly criticized for doing those jobs. These are not the dregs of the earth, they are just plain old folks like you and me, I know, I was one of them for more than three years. We were retired and laid off IT engineers, retired and laid off telecom engineers, medical discharged military, medical discharged cops, and a variety of others.

The agents are given specific guidelines for personal screening, where and what to touch and for how long and with what. Accusing them of sex abuse is the analog of anti-gun nuts accusing ALL CHL holders of being murderers and rapists because they carry guns. Are there a few bad apples? Of course, it's inevitable, just as there a few bad apple CHL holders, but to paint them all with the same broad brush is just as unfair to them as it is when one CHL gets caught carrying while intoxicated and we all get accused of being pistol packing drunks.

Overall, yes, TSA has made their own rules, within legislated guidelines, but the screeners are not the ones making them, and they are violating no one's rights, everyone who purchases airline tickets agrees to the search, if you don't like it, go some other way.

Jim,

I am willing to accept every point in your post - except what is posted in red - as arguable. That's not to say I agree, but the points can be argued with some validity. However, just because the TSA screeners themselves did not set the guidelines does not mean they are not violating peoples rights. They are the agents of the violations. That would be akin to saying that individuals operating concentration camps and gas chambers during WWII did not violate the rights of the Jews because they did not create the system in the first place.

You can argue all day that what they are doing is not sexual assault and that they are just good folks trying as best they can to do their jobs and you will have a leg to stand on. But you cannot, in the context of the 4th amendment, say that they are not violating anybody's rights. They most certainly are and they are doing it literally thousands of times every day.

---

Edited to add: Let me be clear that I in no way mean to compare the seriousness of the grievances between TSA screeners and concentration camp workers. TSA agents are not guilty of carrying out acts of genocide or even murder. I am merely attempting to show the fallacy of the argument that the screeners are not violating rights because they did not create the guidelines that enable rights to be violated.

terryg wrote:

jimlongley wrote:I object strenuously to the title of this thread.

I was about to challenge any of you to show one case where a TSA agent has grabbed any part of a passenger's body and twisted it, much less a breast. And I will still issue that challenge, not apocryphal, real, witnessed, and confessed to.

This is hardly a case of offsetting fouls, the TSA agents are doing a job to the best of their abilities, following rules promulgated by a bureaucracy they have no control over or say in, and they get roundly criticized for doing those jobs. These are not the dregs of the earth, they are just plain old folks like you and me, I know, I was one of them for more than three years. We were retired and laid off IT engineers, retired and laid off telecom engineers, medical discharged military, medical discharged cops, and a variety of others.

The agents are given specific guidelines for personal screening, where and what to touch and for how long and with what. Accusing them of sex abuse is the analog of anti-gun nuts accusing ALL CHL holders of being murderers and rapists because they carry guns. Are there a few bad apples? Of course, it's inevitable, just as there a few bad apple CHL holders, but to paint them all with the same broad brush is just as unfair to them as it is when one CHL gets caught carrying while intoxicated and we all get accused of being pistol packing drunks.

Overall, yes, TSA has made their own rules, within legislated guidelines, but the screeners are not the ones making them, and they are violating no one's rights, everyone who purchases airline tickets agrees to the search, if you don't like it, go some other way.

Jim,

I am willing to accept every point in your post - except what is posted in red - as arguable. That's not to say I agree, but the points can be argued with some validity. However, just because the TSA screeners themselves did not set the guidelines does not mean they are not violating peoples rights. They are the agents of the violations. That would be akin to saying that individuals operating concentration camps and gas chambers during WWII did not violate the rights of the Jews because they did not create the system in the first place.

You can argue all day that what they are doing is not sexual assault and that they are just good folks trying as best they can to do their jobs and you will have a leg to stand on. But you cannot, in the context of the 4th amendment, say that they are not violating anybody's rights. They most certainly are and they are doing it literally thousands of times every day.

---

Edited to add: Let me be clear that I in no way mean to compare the seriousness of the grievances between TSA screeners and concentration camp workers. TSA agents are not guilty of carrying out acts of genocide or even murder. I am merely attempting to show the fallacy of the argument that the screeners are not violating rights because they did not create the guidelines that enable rights to be violated.

What rights are being violated?

jimlongley wrote: What rights are being violated?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

mamabearCali wrote:

jimlongley wrote: What rights are being violated?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

This

mamabearCali wrote:

jimlongley wrote: What rights are being violated?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Nope, don't see it.