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There have a been a few recent threads about TSA screenings which is a really sore topic for me. Even on this forum, there are a few that defend the current measures - which surprises me a great deal.

I found myself envisioning the conversation where someone would attempt to explain and justify these measures to our founding fathers. Imagine trying to explain it all to Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, or Benjamin Franklin ...

Us: "But sir, you have to understand what this country now faces. There are evil people bent on destroying us because of the very freedoms given to us by God and recognized by you and your peers. Just look at what they did to us in 2001. They used our transportation system to kill 3000 Americans. It is a much different world than when our country was young. So you see, we have to take these measures to protect ourselves and our freedoms ..."

The Founders: _______________________________________

Fill in the blank ... I dare you.

The Founders: Ban horses and buggies.....do it now!

Founders: "Safety is an illusion, liberty and freedom are tangible and attainable. The safety of a populace depends on the citizens to actively defend their liberties against those who would wish to remove them. The government should be by the people and for the people. When a government forces the population to bend to its beliefs against the will of the people, then changes need to be made."

Ooh, ooh! My turn!

Did the founding fathers (and Mom's) ever envision Weapons of Mass Destruction? If so, how did they figure into their deliberations?

/discuss

In the 18th century, WMD was a grapeshot charge in a field cannon.

Try explaining what an airplane is. "You get inside that metal tube and it flies you across the country in a few hours?" "Are you out of your mind?".


From Wikiquotes:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

This was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759); the book was published by Benjamin Franklin; its author was Richard Jackson, but Franklin did claim responsibility for some small excerpts that were used in it.

How are the terrorists going to get WMD's on aircraft?

Nuclear? No, too many radiation sensors for that one
Biological? Nothing we have in place even now will stop them.
Chemical? maybe, but then you could just vent the atmosphere.

terryg wrote:There have a been a few recent threads about TSA screenings which is a really sore topic for me. Even on this forum, there are a few that defend the current measures - which surprises me a great deal.

I found myself envisioning the conversation where someone would attempt to explain and justify these measures to our founding fathers. Imagine trying to explain it all to Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, or Benjamin Franklin ...

Us: "But sir, you have to understand what this country now faces. There are evil people bent on destroying us because of the very freedoms given to us by God and recognized by you and your peers. Just look at what they did to us in 2011. They used our transportation system to kill 3000 Americans. It is a much different world than when our country was young. So you see, we have to take these measures to protect ourselves and our freedoms ..."

The Founders: _______________________________________

Fill in the blank ... I dare you.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

Rex B wrote:In the 18th century, WMD was a grapeshot charge in a field cannon.

Launching diseased bodies into the opposing camp. Bio-warfare has always been a WMD.

Frankly, I'd be embarassed to try and explain the TSA to them. The TSA is simply another symptom of an out-of-control federal government in my mind. The Founders felt that the nation borrowing $25 Million was a source of great anxiety, and promptly raising that money to repay the debt was championed by most, if not all, public officials. In light of that, they got it right with the Bill of Rights, which even addresses this as Apostate quoted.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated."

The Founders were collectively a group of true visionaries. That this nation still exists is powerful evidence of their genius. That this nation is now threatened by the overwhelming burden of the federal government and the national debt that our elected officials continue to rely on is powerful evidence that we -- as a society and as individual thinkers -- have fallen quite far.

Today's quote from the Patriot Post -- "The principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Taylor, 1816

Middle Age Russ wrote:Frankly, I'd be embarassed to try and explain the TSA to them.

That is my point exactly! I cannot even grasp how you would start the conversation. No matter how much you tried to explain the complexities of our world today and no matter how successfully you could paint that picture - I can not see anyway that the conversation would not be a huge slap in the face to them.

The Founders: "So, your telling me that these machines allow government officials to see underneath your clothing? And American citizens, children of our great republic, willingly submit and walk through them because they are afraid of being attacked?"

You know I really couldn't. Terrorists existed then, biological warfare existed then, firing a city existed then. Sure the weapons are bigger now, but so is the infrastructure too. If a city was destroyed by fire the population would be totally without any support whatsoever. How many people came to the aid of those ravaged by 9-11? So the threat really has not expanded that greatly as some would have us believe. Yep we face a grave threat, but proportionally no greater than what they had in 19th century. They did not resort to strip searching children--how do I explain to them that we do. They would likely call it tyranny and call for at minimum serious resistance to it, only to find out that the populace contrary to their desires has not been permitted to be nearly as well armed to resist a tryannical gov't as they intentioned them to be. How shameful.

mamabearCali wrote:You know I really couldn't. Terrorists existed then, biological warfare existed then, firing a city existed then. Sure the weapons are bigger now, but so is the infrastructure too. If a city was destroyed by fire the population would be totally without any support whatsoever. How many people came to the aid of those ravaged by 9-11? So the threat really has not expanded that greatly as some would have us believe. Yep we face a grave threat, but proportionally no greater than what they had in 19th century. They did not resort to strip searching children--how do I explain to them that we do. They would likely call it tyranny and call for at minimum serious resistance to it, only to find out that the populace contrary to their desires has not been permitted to be nearly as well armed to resist a tryannical gov't as they intentioned them to be. How shameful.

I would dispute that. I feel that the threats we face have changed particularly in regards to being proportionally greater.

I would also state that I agree with the contention that the founding father's would indeed be turning-over in their graves right now. But I have to wonder how they would handle the issues that face us today, such as WMD's and our perception of "security".

Maybe, I have not run the math on it so you could be right that they are porportionally greater. Still, I think a body catapulted into a city infected with typhus would be a pretty deadly threat. Fire bombs lobbed into a city so that it burns to the ground is pretty similar to what we face in a dirty bomb threat (of course we get the added pleasure of radiation and radiation sickness--while they just had burns to deal with). And those are the biggest of threats. I think though they would still say even to the grave threats we face that to exchange liberty for security is a terribly poor collective decision and will lead to tyranny in which no one is safe.

mamabearCali wrote:I think though they would still say even to the grave threats we face that to exchange liberty for security is a terribly poor collective decision and will lead to tyranny in which no one is safe.