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School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:50 pm
by ralewis
I thought I knew the answer to this question, but upon review of the doc at the link below I'm not so sure.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... ws0102.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is the question. My son plays in a pop warner football league and plays at various Middle School/High School football fields. Since both teams are Pop Warner vs. a school sponsored team, is it lawful to carry in a middle/high school stadium when a nob-school event is underway?
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:02 pm
by apostate
If it's not a school sponsored event, the key question in my mind is whether the stadium is a building. It's clearly a structure, but while all buildings are structures, not all structures are buildings.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:59 pm
by Keith B
The only definition in the Penal Codes for building is this:
CHAPTER 30. BURGLARY AND CRIMINAL TRESPASSSec. 30.01. DEFINITIONS. ......
(2) "Building" means any enclosed structure intended for use or occupation as a habitation or for some purpose of trade, manufacture, ornament, or use.
And, the Dictionary defines enclose(d) as:
en·close
verb (used with object), -closed, -clos·ing.
1. to shut or hem in; close in on all sides: a valley enclosed by tall mountains.
2. to surround, as with a fence or wall: to enclose land.
3. to insert in the same envelope, package, or the like: He enclosed a check. A book was sent with the bill enclosed.
4. to hold or contain: His letter enclosed a check.
5. Roman Catholic Church .
a. to restrict to the enclosure of a monastery or convent.
b. (of a monastery, convent, church, etc.) to establish or fix the boundary of an enclosure.
I would think the stadium is an enclosed structure, and it has an intended use. So, I think they could probably define it as a building.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:41 pm
by croc870
Unless I'm missing something, that would be a sporting event and unlawful under 46.035.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:44 pm
by Keith B
croc870 wrote:Unless I'm missing something, that would be a sporting event and unlawful under 46.035.
No, it is not a
high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:11 pm
by ralewis
Keith B wrote:croc870 wrote:Unless I'm missing something, that would be a sporting event and unlawful under 46.035.
No, it is not a
high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event.
Right. This is a private league not associated with any school but games played on a school field. If we played at a public park, I don't believe there would be any issue whatsoever. It's not a professional or inter-scholastic sporting event.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:20 pm
by Keith B
Think the problem is the stadium could be construed as a building. If it was on an open, non-enclosed field, then I would think you would be OK.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:24 pm
by ralewis
Keith B wrote:Think the problem is the stadium could be construed as a building. If it was on an open, non-enclosed field, then I would think you would be OK.
And that was my interpretation until I read the 'during a school activity' part of the statute.
I haven't yet carried to a game and don't intend to. I just began to be unsure once I re-read. So, is there a general prohibition for all schools even if no school event is taking place? I thought there was actually which is why I assumed it was off limits no matter what.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:53 pm
by Keith B
ralewis wrote:Keith B wrote:Think the problem is the stadium could be construed as a building. If it was on an open, non-enclosed field, then I would think you would be OK.
And that was my interpretation until I read the 'during a school activity' part of the statute.
I haven't yet carried to a game and don't intend to. I just began to be unsure once I re-read. So, is there a general prohibition for all schools even if no school event is taking place? I thought there was actually which is why I assumed it was off limits no matter what.
Yes, in a school building is off-limits at all times, school function or not going on.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:11 pm
by Cobra Medic
ralewis wrote:Keith B wrote:Think the problem is the stadium could be construed as a building. If it was on an open, non-enclosed field, then I would think you would be OK.
And that was my interpretation until I read the 'during a school activity' part of the statute.
I haven't yet carried to a game and don't intend to. I just began to be unsure once I re-read. So, is there a general prohibition for all schools even if no school event is taking place? I thought there was actually which is why I assumed it was off limits no matter what.
Like Keith says, an open field would be OK as long as there's not a school event, but a building is always prohibited.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:16 pm
by shootthesheet
Remember not to go into a bathroom while you are there. It is legal to carry on any school grounds as long as an "event" isn't taking place there but not in buildings at any time. I carry to every one of my kid’s games at school owned fields because they are not school events and because there is almost never any law enforcement around.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:32 pm
by ralewis
shootthesheet wrote:Remember not to go into a bathroom while you are there. It is legal to carry on any school grounds as long as an "event" isn't taking place there but not in buildings at any time. I carry to every one of my kid’s games at school owned fields because they are not school events and because there is almost never any law enforcement around.
Seems it's not all clear as to whether a school football field is a building. Yankee Stadium certainly is a building as is the Cowboys stadium. But at what point is it not a building. Most of these games are at Middle School football fields. It'd be a stretch to call them a building I'd imagine.
I have always left it in the car when at the games. I only half-jokingly posted in this forum about 3 months ago that we need a CHL-for Dummies initiative next legislative session.... It's amazing how many of these gray areas we encounter.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:00 pm
by apostate
Keith B wrote:I would think the stadium is an enclosed structure, and it has an intended use. So, I think they could probably define it as a building.
I believe walls and a roof are essential elements of a building. A corral has walls but no roof, and I therefore do not consider a corral a building. Similarly,I would argue a gazebo lacks walls, and is thus a structure but not a building. If a stadium has a roof (e.g. the Astrodome) then it's a building but if it's (always) open to the sky it is not.
It is not, however, an argument I wish to make in court with my freedom on the line.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:04 pm
by Keith B
apostate wrote:Keith B wrote:I would think the stadium is an enclosed structure, and it has an intended use. So, I think they could probably define it as a building.
I believe walls and a roof are essential elements of a building. A corral has walls but no roof, and I therefore do not consider a corral a building. Similarly,I would argue a gazebo lacks walls, and is thus a structure but not a building. If a stadium has a roof (e.g. the Astrodome) then it's a building but if it's (always) open to the sky it is not.
It is not, however, an argument I wish to make in court with my freedom on the line.
Look at the definitions of building and enclosed in my post a few above. I think it could be argued pretty heavily if it has walls, then it is a building, roof or not.
Re: School Carry question -- stadium specifically
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:06 pm
by KRM45
Are they paying rent for the use of the field? If not, it could be argued that the school is sponsoring the event by providing the use of the field, lighting, bathrooms, etc...