TexasCHLforum.com

First of all thanks for having a community out there dedicated to us Texas CHL holders.

Secondly, I'm new to concealed carry and my short and long term goal is to do everything in my power to make sure I'm physically and mentally prepared for the responsibilities of being a CHL holder. So far, I have experience shooting guns, but I have never had to shoot a person. I'm aware of the white/yellow/orange/red color scale and what it means to be in each state.

I'm very scared of any physically violent confrontations, even verbal ones, so even though I might be prepared, probably at the start of state Orange I'll be scared and shaky. The Red state says that you may not necessarily have drawn your firearm yet, but how do you convey to the threat that you are in state Red? Would I reach around and place my hand on my firearm through my shirt, to signal to them that I am armed and prepared? My first thought is to do this (so that they can read my body language and get a feel for my readiness) and announce to them that they should not come closer, or that I am generally uncomfortable with them approaching me.

Is this a good general course of action? Is anything about this illegal?

The key thing I know that is bad is when you brandish (draw) your weapon and it becomes visible to the threat and/or witnesses/bystanders. My general course of action described above is my attempt to avoid breaking the law by brandishing but also make the threat aware of my capabilities (which would have the same general affect as drawing on them). Seems like there should be a state above color Red that is something like Black, where you have drawn your gun and have the target at gunpoint, with finger on the trigger and safety off.

Any thoughts or advice?

I wonder if getting professional training and/or joining competition shooting where I practice draw/shoot will help keep me more calm in a situation like this.

The color codes represent internal mental states. They don't need to be conveyed to anybody.

tbrown wrote:The color codes represent internal mental states. They don't need to be conveyed to anybody.

I understand that, but the point is, if you have someone approaching you that is identified as a threat, you want to try to fend them off without shooting them right away. Making an announcement or visually reaching around to the position of your gun might save you a potential ticket to jail and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

Sure. I agree the continuum of force should be a consideration in your tactics.

Here's some good food for thought viewtopic.php?f=23&t=52316" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Competition is usually good for two of the three parts of the combat triad. Those parts don't come into play until you have a gun in your hands, so they're not the whole picture. Fortunately, there's a lot of good reading and vids that cover mind set. So between self study and competition, you can significantly improve your ability to defend yourself. Tactics training is something else to consider once you have a good foundation.

void.pointer wrote:...but how do you convey to the threat that you are in state Red? Would I reach around and place my hand on my firearm through my shirt, to signal to them that I am armed and prepared? My first thought is to do this (so that they can read my body language and get a feel for my readiness) and announce to them that they should not come closer, or that I am generally uncomfortable with them approaching me.

Is this a good general course of action? Is anything about this illegal?

In my renewal class last Saturday we went over this topic while covering this section of the law:

PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

The scenario the instructor used was if a belligerent /drunk person was yelling threats at you from across the room, first put objects/people/distance between you and the actor and pull out your cell phone. If the actor continues, let him know that you are calling the police, (then call the police). If he continues to advance, it's OK to yell that you are armed and will protect yourself. If he continues, it's OK to either put your hand on your gun or pull it and point it down while reminding him the police have been called. The instructor's scenario continued with the actor producing a weapon of some sort and then it changed into a deadly force defense scenario.

void.pointer wrote:

tbrown wrote:The color codes represent internal mental states. They don't need to be conveyed to anybody.

I understand that, but the point is, if you have someone approaching you that is identified as a threat, you want to try to fend them off without shooting them right away. Making an announcement or visually reaching around to the position of your gun might save you a potential ticket to jail and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

That good article mentions gunhand to shirt tail/belt line, but not drawing (unless needed) ... some here do weak hand to sign language with additional verbal command to not come closer/ Stop or whatever

Pretty much universal sign language ... reinforced by verbal command/warning to stop come no closer etc while gun hand gets positioned.... in case you need to draw (even if you were unarmed, as the article stated / brushing/sweeping the shirt tail, and they thought he was armed.)

If that's what you were asking.

There used to be a link to a body language chart police supposedly had to tell if a person was armed ... tugging shirt tail ... elbows moving away from body as if to draw etc ... body language can fend off people too who think you are armed.... without drawing maybe.

One time a robber had a gun at my head, it was a customer I had tried to sell speakers to moments earlier and I was oblivious, it was too late for any "fending off" by body language at that point. (I told that story previously here, I could have disarmed him, but chose not to, as there was a second robber in the store which I became aware of immediately upon scanning the area fast after realizing what was going down)

I had a biker lookin beard in College, (and rode) .. a girl convinced me to shave and get a haircut and all of a sudden people bumped into me on the sidewalk (I looked like a wimp) That never occurred when I looked scary. How you appear to others determines their actions ... do you look like a victim/do you look armed ... body language/confidence etc

Your brain is your greatest weapon, and yep, Adrenaline will make you shake a lot, I held a gun pointed at my front door once while on the phone with 911 as a guy tried to break in ... I doubt I could have hit the door that day my hand was shaking so much ... but shaking isn't as much or as immediately if you are thinking to scan, and assess ...

I'm too old to look scary now, so I go for crazy, and broke enough to have nothing worth stealing, yet still confident and aware, not an old victim (with a little bit of old crazy mountain man thrown in)

Oh. and Welcome

RPB wrote:

void.pointer wrote:

tbrown wrote:The color codes represent internal mental states. They don't need to be conveyed to anybody.

I understand that, but the point is, if you have someone approaching you that is identified as a threat, you want to try to fend them off without shooting them right away. Making an announcement or visually reaching around to the position of your gun might save you a potential ticket to jail and tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees.

That good article mentions gunhand to shirt tail/belt line, but not drawing (unless needed) ... some here do weak hand to sign language with additional verbal command to not come closer/ Stop or whatever

Pretty much universal sign language ... reinforced by verbal command/warning to stop come no closer etc while gun hand gets positioned.... in case you need to draw (even if you were unarmed, as the article stated / brushing/sweeping the shirt tail, and they thought he was armed.)

If that's what you were asking.

There used to be a link to a body language chart police supposedly had to tell if a person was armed ... tugging shirt tail ... elbows moving away from body as if to draw etc ... body language can fend off people too who think you are armed.... without drawing maybe.

One time a robber had a gun at my head, it was a customer I had tried to sell speakers to moments earlier and I was oblivious, it was too late for any "fending off" by body language at that point. (I told that story previously here, I could have disarmed him, but chose not to, as there was a second robber in the store which I became aware of immediately upon scanning the area fast after realizing what was going down)

I had a biker lookin beard in College, (and rode) .. a girl convinced me to shave and get a haircut and all of a sudden people bumped into me on the sidewalk (I looked like a wimp) That never occurred when I looked scary. How you appear to others determines their actions ... do you look like a victim/do you look armed ... body language/confidence etc

Your brain is your greatest weapon, and yep, Adrenaline will make you shake a lot, I held a gun pointed at my front door once while on the phone with 911 as a guy tried to break in ... I doubt I could have hit the door that day my hand was shaking so much ... but shaking isn't as much or as immediately if you are thinking to scan, and assess ...

I'm too old to look scary now, so I go for crazy, and broke enough to have nothing worth stealing, yet still confident and aware, not an old victim (with a little bit of old crazy mountain man thrown in)

Oh. and Welcome

Thanks this is great info. That's scary that someone had a gun to your head. How did you end up getting out of there alive?

ok, lol I'll tell it again.

Stores I've worked in were held up two times


That one was about 1971/72 (I was about 16/17 or so, and CHL didn't exist then anyway) a Store on Main Street in Houston across the street from Sears
A Sears 4201 Main Street, Houston, TX
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=sears+dow ... CCQQ_AUoAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Click Street view and rotate till you see "Fire Sale" "Label Warehouse" sign ... that's the place (the Fire sale has been there forever.)
We were in the now-boarded-up place on the corner
Ok, It was about 9 am, we just opened, had about $200.00 in change, no big bills.
3 of us worked there, my manager was a Viet Nam Vet who that morning mentioned he wasn't scared of guns, but was of knives, so if we ever got robbed, he'd fight with the cash drawer.
The girl cashier said people would be stupid to try to rob a place which made as little money as we did, they'd have all the change in their pockets when they try to run or a broken paper sack from the weight. (remember this)

We had a row of speakers dividing the store in half, stereos on one side, 8-track tapes records etc on the other (yes 8-tracks )

I was selling a guy speakers, (I thought) he turned to leave the store with an "Ok, I'll be back later" and whirled around and drew and had a gun at my head. He looked towards the front of the store where my manager and cashier were and I had an opportunity to disarm him, but I also saw his partner up there with a gun on Gary and the Cashier so instead I said "you going to lock us up?"
He said "Where"

Meanwhile:
Up front at this time, the front robber was yelling at the cashier to lift the cash drawer (for big bills under it) and instead of doing so, she argued that we just opened, nothing was under it, Gary told her to follow the guy's directions so she took it out, he saw there were no big bills and so he told her to sack up all the change. She started to argue but did it anyway.

So back where I was ,,,
We had 2 "back store rooms"
One was a door with a padlock, but only curtain material for a wall, and a phone extension back there ... so I suggested there
He shrugged, looked at his partner and said "Let's lock them in the back room"

Well we all crowded around that door but the idiots couldn't work a padlock (we had an opportunity to fight, but it would be risky, both guns were loaded., round nosed lead bullets in revolvers ... we could see the bullets)

The idiots looked frustrated and had no plan so I suggested the other back room (which had a grill in the bottom of the door and the wall was the blacked out glass windows facing the street.
So we all shuffled to there

We walked in, they said "get on the floor and don't come out for 5 minutes or we shoot"


That' would have been a good time to have been armed. (Girls in a yogurt shop in Austin had similar scenario, all were killed)

We waited till we heard them leave and we exited through the metal grill/vent in the bottom third of the wooden hollowcore door.
I ran to the three-wheeled motorcycle officer writing parking tickets, got ignored, ran to Sears found officers in there, got ignored, ran around the block looking for the guys, no luck, ran back to store as police arrived that the cashier had called.


The two guys had no plan, they were shaking, sweating, nervous and one looked like he was breaking out into bumpy skin rash
They knew they had guns, bullets and "power"
That's the thing, most won't know what to do ...
I used my head and kept calm and suggested things for the non-thinkers to do which gave us a chance.
I used my head, I'll always use that first, but NOW that I CAN BE ARMED, I wouldn't just lay there if I decided to get on the floor they appeared like they would shoot us while we were on the floor, "Pop goes the weasel" comes to mind.
====================================================

As I said, I could have disarmed the guy, he was looking away up front, the revolver was not cocked, and I had an opportunity to grab the cylinder (REVOLVER=it won't fire if it is not cocked until the cylinder turns ) but I chose not to do that and jeopardize Gary and the cashier with the other guy up front holding a gun on them.

================

The other time was about 1973 ... I was Asst Store Manager, True Value Hardware and Lumber ... 5 armed guys with 2 shotguns and 3 pistols at a lumber yard/hardware store farther out on 14105 South Post Oak Rd.) in Houston http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rl ... CAwQ_AUoAg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Store closed years later, after Mr Lester Prokop, the owner died) ... honestly, I ignored the robbers gathering up all employees and locking them in the manager's office and acted clueless/ as if deaf and dumb and continued straightening up shelves until I got a chance where all employees and robbers were in back of the store and all customers in front, to run next door ...out a side door to the offices and have them call police... Police helicopter got them walking down the street, right after they left, about a half a block down. They had left a Kroger Grocery Store employee in critical condition the week earlier by beating him.

Then I opened the manager's office door for them to come out and asked why they were all in there goofing off while I worked. One customer told them "Those guys tried to get his attention too, but he was too busy working to notice, so they left him alone" So I say 12 or 15 employees in here goofing off, I tell you it's hard to get good help nowadays. I'm lucky I didn't get slapped, a couple of those cashiers were scary

Thanks this is great info. That's scary that someone had a gun to your head. How did you end up getting out of there alive?

So short answer = I used my head ........ as I said, your brain is your greatest weapon
But giving credit where credit is due, correct answer = God was watching out for me.

=========================

I think God was watching out for you. I have the luxury of sitting in my chair, a cold one at hand, and thinking about what I would have done. I have to admit, I do not think I would ever invite an armed robber to take us all to a back room, for any reason. The back room is generally where the decision is made to get rid of any eye-witnesses. Like I said, JMHO.

RJ