TexasCHLforum.com

Under the PC, your weapon can be used to stop the commission or imminent commission of robbery. We also have the Castle Doctrine, stating that if anybody enters your home by force (illegally), you can use deadly force against them, with the assumption being that they intend to do the same to you.

As a sort of "mix" of these two principles, what if you're not IN the house at the time? I'm thinking of two scenarios. We live on a small farm. There have been some daytime burglaries in this area in the past few months.

1. Suppose I'm out working in a pasture or somewhere out of sight of the house. I'm carrying a weapon (as I always do, for snakes, coyotes, whatever). I go back to the house and as I approach it, I see somebody burglarizing it, carrying stuff out to a truck. Legally, what are my options?

2. Suppose I'm out working in a pasture or somewhere out of sight of the house. I'm carrying a weapon (as I always do, for snakes, coyotes, whatever). I go back to the house and as I approach it, I see a suspicious truck parked in front, but nobody around and the front door standing open. They're obviously inside the house. Legally, what are my options?

First - - - Call 911.

Second - - - Get the license no of the vehicle.

Third - - - Wait for the police.

Fourth - - - Detain the BGs if they try to leave.

Fifth - - - do what you gotta do from there. I think that shooting someone over property isn't often necessary or even prudent. We have insurance and you've written down the plate number of the burglar's truck.

Here's the relevant section from the PC:

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,

i'm trying to leave people's personal opinions out of it. Of course property usually isn't worth killing over. It all depends on specifics. In any case, the way 9.42 reads, I'm legally covered if I pull my weapon and tell them to put the stuff back (or down) or else.

As far as "detaining" people for police, that can be more than many people bargained for. It may not be like TV, where you point a gun at somebody and they drop to the floor like a wet rag. When you threaten somebody with a firearm ("face down on the floor!") you're also saying that if they DON'T do what you tell them, you'll shoot them. Would you? What if they just laugh and say "heh, fine, go ahead and shoot" and walk away? A lot can be included in that word, "detaining."

The second scenario concerns me more, actually. If they're in the house when I walk up. I guess the castle doctrine wouldn't apply, because I'm outside....? What if I sneak in through a back door? Suppose I know my wife is in the house? Does that change things?

Ruark wrote:Under the PC, your weapon can be used to stop the commission or imminent commission of robbery. We also have the Castle Doctrine, stating that if anybody enters your home by force (illegally), you can use deadly force against them, with the assumption being that they intend to do the same to you.

As a sort of "mix" of these two principles, what if you're not IN the house at the time? I'm thinking of two scenarios. We live on a small farm. There have been some daytime burglaries in this area in the past few months.

1. Suppose I'm out working in a pasture or somewhere out of sight of the house. I'm carrying a weapon (as I always do, for snakes, coyotes, whatever). I go back to the house and as I approach it, I see somebody burglarizing it, carrying stuff out to a truck. Legally, what are my options?

2. Suppose I'm out working in a pasture or somewhere out of sight of the house. I'm carrying a weapon (as I always do, for snakes, coyotes, whatever). I go back to the house and as I approach it, I see a suspicious truck parked in front, but nobody around and the front door standing open. They're obviously inside the house. Legally, what are my options?

The Castle Law provides legal justification for deadly force IF the home is occupied. If it's not occupied, then the law about protecting property quoted in the previous post would apply. The key there is, you must believe that deadly force is the only way the property can be retrieved.

If the the burglars confront you when you come up to the property, then you have a robbery. Deadly force is presumed reasonable for robbery according to PC9.32.

If it was me, and I came up to my house and could tell there was someone inside, I'd call the police and watch from afar. I don't believe I would take the risk of confronting them, even if they came out of the house. Property isn't worth risking my life over.

Brian

IANAL and all that. And looking at only the legalities, not necessarily the tactically wise...

As I understand it:

-Theft is someone taking your stuff without your consent. Don't believe you can use deadly force to prevent this.
- Burglary is theft from your habitation or a building not open to the public (your storage shed, I guess). This seems to be the situation you described above. Very narrow space to use deadly force to prevent this.
- Robbery is theft while causing bodily injury or threatening to cause bodily injury or death. Deadly force can be used to prevent this.
- Aggravated robbery is theft while displaying or using a deadly weapon, or causing serious bodily injury, or threatening or causing bodily injury or death to a disabled person or a person 65 years of age or older. Can use deadly force to prevent this.
- You can use deadly force if somone unlawfully and with force enters your habitation while you are in it, providing you did not provoke them and you are not engaged in some criminal act yourself. This is not really anything to do formally with burglarly or robbery, altho that's generally why someone would barge into your home.
- You are not required to retreat from any place you have a legal right to be, as long as you are not provoking someone or engaged in criminal activity. If someone threatens or uses enough force against you to justify your use of deadly force, you are not required to try to run away first.

So. If you saw people carting off your stuff in the daytime, that in itself doesn't seem to merit deadly force according to the law -- it appears to be theft+building = burglary. you could use less than deadly force, I think, e.g. stand in the way, take stuff out of their hands. Not saying this is smart.

If you tell them to stop and they ignore you, I think it is still just burglary and you are not authorized deadly force. Again, I think you could use lesser force.

If you tell them to stop, and instead they show a weapon, and/or make a credible threat or effort to harm you, then we've moved up the scale to robbery/aggravated robbery. Bonus points if you are older than 64 or disabled. Now you can move into deadly force use if you think that is what is required.

If you march past the burglars, go in your house and shut the door, then one of them opens the door and comes in, now we are in Castle Doctrine territory and your use of deadly force is presumed reasonable. Not required, maybe you have the skill to throw them out with your bare hands.

If at any time they threaten you or act against you with deadly force, irrespective of other crimes or actions, then you can use force up to deadly force to protect yourself.

If you saw a strange vehicle in your driveway and your front door open, I think you would certainly have the legal option to go into your own house. If it turned out to be strangers and not your nephew-in-law that your wife forgot to tell you was coming to visit, I am not sure the Castle Doctrine, read strictly as implemented in Texas law, would cover you. If one of the strangers showed a weapon, or otherwise made a credible threat to serioulsy injure or kill you, you could still legally defend yourself.

Once again, IANAL and i only occasionally watch Law and Order. Don't call me for bail money if you rely on this and i was wrong.

Do you have a bulldozer ? backhoe ?

Remember Joe Horn?

Any you only have about 20 seconds more or less to get all this legal stuff straight in your mind before acting.

For the most part I think I would call 911 and wait it out. However, with my dog in the house I would not hesitate to risk making sure he is alright. Man's best friend and all that.

Every single one of these crimes has specific statutory definition. The acts must fit that definition or it isn't that crime.

Usually, burglary is entering a close during the night time to commit a violent felony, or some such. Robbery is usually something like taking property by force or fear.

Each state has its own definition, just like the different degrees of homicide from Murder to involuntary manslaughter are similarly defined in each state, as that legislature enacted them, and perhaps interpreted by that state's courts.

So depending on what Texas has for a definition of burglary, you may or may not be shooting a burglar, maybe a mere lookie-loo or trespasser, or officious intermeddler, etc.

I'm not a Texas lawyer, and have no idea about the Texas definition, but California law defines burglary under Penal Code 459 as "entering a structure with the intent to commit a felony (or a petty theft) once inside."

Although burglary is sometimes referred to as "breaking and entering," prosecutors can charge you with this offense even if there is no forced entry of the structure.