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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_Massacre

Today I was reading the latest issue of American Handgunner. Mr. Massad Ayoob recounted the "Newhall Massacre",
aka the "Newhall Incident." I was going to post the link to American Handgunner, but the above link details it pretty well
and is a tad easier to read than turning the pages on the AH website.

Site: Newhall, CA. This was a rural area of Los Angeles County.
Date: April 6, 1970.
Crime: 4 CHP officers were killed within 5 minutes by 2 BG's who were better armed.

Although it was 4 CHP LEO's who were killed, the LA <PD? Sheriff's Dept?> conducted the investigation of the crime scene.
CHP also learned some lessons here.

The 4 LEO's were all young, didn't have much experience, and were primarily using Colt or Smith and Wesson .357 revolvers.
They had only trained on .38 Special's and it was theorized that the heavy recoil of the .357's didn't result in hits to the BG's.

It was not mentioned in the above link, but Massad mentioned that the Remington 870 shotgun that one of the initial officers
was carrying was hampered with some kind of tape on it. The tape was put on there so that a senior officer could check it
at the end of a shift to see if it had been racked. It was theorized that the tape on this shotgun interfered with the proper
operation of the shotgun, and that's why only 3 of the 4 shotgun shells it contained were fired. Either the LEO or the
citizen hero (a former Marine on his way to work) ejected one good shell onto the ground.

The LEO's were using revolvers and when empty, they had to reload their wheelguns from "spill pouches". One of the LEO's
was trying to reload his revolver when the BG slipped up on him with a 1911 and fired 2 rounds into his brain, killing him.

After this incident, CHP restricted the use of .357's, relying more on the .38 Special. CHP OK'd the use of speedloaders for
their revolvers, but then switched to Smith and Wesson <4506?> semi-auto's chambered in .40. The use of tape on the shotguns
was also stopped.

NEWHALL became an acronym for new CHP policies. I can't remember what all of the letters represent, but officers were taught
that if suspects would not exit their vehicle, the LEO's should hold off further action until sufficient backup LEO's had arrived.

The Newhall Incident is a turning point in the LEO world - one in which the semi-automatic pistol would replace the revolver.

SIA

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:CHP OK'd the use of speedloaders for
their revolvers, but then switched to Smith and Wesson <4506?> semi-auto's chambered in .40. The use of tape on the shotguns
was also stopped.

The 4506 was 45 ACP. At that time, there was no .40 S&W. The .40 S&W wasn't "invented" until 1990. There was a 5906, which was in 9mm.

OldCannon wrote:

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:CHP OK'd the use of speedloaders for
their revolvers, but then switched to Smith and Wesson <4506?> semi-auto's chambered in .40. The use of tape on the shotguns
was also stopped.

The 4506 was 45 ACP. At that time, there was no .40 S&W. The .40 S&W wasn't "invented" until 1990. There was a 5906, which was in 9mm.

I wondered about that. I didn't think the .40 was that old.

Boy, talk about ancient history.

I would love to read Ayoob's analysis of the shootout, but I can tell you from my reading of the wikipedia article with the expectation of finding out what the BGs were "better armed" with, that I didn't see that much better armed, more like better prepared. Better prepared to shoot to kill, better prepared to surprise unprepared officers, and absolutely committed to "wasting" anyone who got in their way.

The initial part of the gunfight was revolver against shotgun and revolver against revolver, and the guy that shot first won in both cases, which was more of an advantage of surprise than weaponry.

The injured officer was lying on the ground attempting to reload when the BG with the 1911 snuck up and shot him, but that was after the BG expended all of the rounds in his own revolver, switched to a 1911, which jammed, and switched to another 1911. Yes, a speedloader would have helped, but I'll bet, from the description, that shock and injury were also factors in his inability to reload.

In 1970 I was still teaching small arms to reservists in the US Navy, and this shootout got mentioned a few times, and my feeling then, and unchanged now, was that the first two officers went into the situation in the wrong condition, particularly since the BGs started out seeming to cooperate, and that first part of the shootout ended in seconds. My lesson to the reservists, and my shipmates, was that you had to be prepared to shoot to kill right from the outset. At that time we had the Weather Underground bombing military facilities in the US, including reserve centers, and had had a couple of bomb scares even on or near our ship. The Navy had even gone so far as to issue ammo to security watch standers, although we were not allowed to be locked and loaded. One of the things I taught was how to leave the bolt of a Garand resting on the top cartridge of an inserted clip, so that simply slamming your hand against the bolt handle would result in a loaded rifle.

We were also supposed to teach shouting "HALT" twice, firing a shot in the air, shouting "HALT" again and firing for effect. We figured out that it took less than 1.8 seconds to do that sequence, including slamming the bolt home, although most of the time we "accidentally" fired the first shot for effect while the second went into the air.

I would love to read Ayoob's analysis of the shootout, ....

You can read it for free on the American Handgunner website, look for the digital edition link.

Every issue is free online, they just have you enter an email address to read. Any email address would work (porky@pig.gov) because it is not verified.

Jumping Frog wrote:

I would love to read Ayoob's analysis of the shootout, ....

You can read it for free on the American Handgunner website, look for the digital edition link.

Every issue is free online, they just have you enter an email address to read. Any email address would work (porky@pig.gov) because it is not verified.

And Ayoob doesn't say they were "better armed" either, just that they were prepared to kill police.

I had completely forgotten about this incident. In April of 1970, I was a senior at Glendora High School, about 50 miles away from Newhall.

Newhall is actually part of Santa Clarita, and it is located in the "Y" formed by the fork of Interstate 5 on the west and California State Route 14 on the east, approximately 6-7 miles NNW of Sylmar—the epicenter of the infamous 1971 Sylmar Earthquake. Interstate 5 continues NNW over the Tejon Pass into the San Joaquin Valley, while the 14 continues NE around the west end of the San Gabriel Mountains to Palmdale in the Mojave Desert. Back in the 1970s, Newhall was a fairly undeveloped semi-rural area, although it has since then become fairly extensively developed.

I have to confess that this incident was not high on my personal radar at the time. I was 17 years old. I was a dope smoking hippie. I was worried about what my draft lottery number was going to be (turned out to be 339). I was scared to death of the possibility of being drafted and sent to Vietnam. I really liked having long hair and wanted to keep it, and back then, I really didn't see cops as public servants. I saw them as fascist storm troopers who apparently thought their job was to harass hippies. In short, I was a self-centered and self-indulgent little pain in the butt with a heavy liberal bias. I only vaguely recollect that this shootout happened, and I know more about it today having read the OP's wiki link than I ever knew about it back when it happened.

I will also add this: The communication of data about events like this is far more ubiquitous today than it was in 1970. Back then, we had no Internet; no smart phones; no texting; no Facebook. VERY few people owned any kind of portable communication capability. There were only 3 local TV stations that even had news departments back then—CBS Channel 2, NBC Channel 4, and the then new upstart ABC Channel 7—and there were two newspapers with county-wide circulations, the Los Angeles Times and the (now defunct) Herald Examiner. A lot of people simply did not make the effort to have access to a news source. Not to say that my own experience was absolutely typical, but I don't recall anyone in my neighborhood, or at school, or amongst my friends talking about this story. Maybe more adults were aware of it, but my cohort mostly was not. My guess is that this story would propagate much more deeply into the public consciousness today than it did back then, by virtue of today's technologies.

What this story also reminds me of is the infamous FBI shootout in Miami in 1986 (WIKIPEDIA). The list of weapons used is instructive, as there were significant weapon/caliber policy changes that came out this encounter. The thing that jumps out at me is in red:

Of the eight agents at the scene, two had Ithaca Model 37 shotguns in their vehicles (McNeill and Mireles), three were armed with semi-automatic Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistols (Dove, Grogan, and Risner), and the rest were armed with Smith & Wesson revolvers. Two of the agents had backup handguns (Hanlon and Risner) and both would end up using them.

{snip}.......


Weaponry and injuries
____________________________________________________________________________

Agents

• Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor injuries from shotgun pellets.[7]
• Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.
• Edmundo Mireles: Remington M870 12-gauge shotgun, five rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver, Smith & Wesson Model 686 (despite not being FBI-issue), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
• Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
• John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, 2-inch barrel, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
• Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
• Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
• Ronald Risner: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 14 rounds fired, S&W Model 60 .38 Special revolver, one round .38 Special +P fired. Uninjured.

Suspects

• William Matix: S&W M3000 12-gauge shotgun, one round #6 shot fired. Killed after being shot six times.
• Michael Platt: Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, three rounds fired. Killed after being shot 12 times.

Michael Platt brought a rifle to a gun fight. Of the 8 agents involved, Platt wounded 4 and killed 2 with his Mini-14. This is the reason that all police vehicles ought to have an M4/M16/AR15 in the vehicle. Instructive indeed.

The Annoyed Man wrote:
I have to confess that this incident was not high on my personal radar at the time. I was 17 years old. I was a dope smoking hippie. I was worried about what my draft lottery number was going to be (turned out to be 339). I was scared to death of the possibility of being drafted and sent to Vietnam. I really liked having long hair and wanted to keep it, and back then, I really didn't see cops as public servants. I saw them as fascist storm troopers who apparently thought their job was to harass hippies. In short, I was a self-centered and self-indulgent little pain in the butt with a heavy liberal bias. I only vaguely recollect that this shootout happened, and I know more about it today having read the OP's wiki link than I ever knew about it back when it happened.

I love an honest man. TAM, I have a hard time seeing you as a pot smoking, liberal biased hippie.

TAM and I share the same mm/dd/yyyy birthday (10/5/1952) and his mention of the draft lottery
was a blast from the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_lottery_(1969)

The above link details how the lottery to be inducted into the US Army worked.

IIRC, of the 365/366 possible birthdays in a calendar year, the rule of thumb I remember (is it correct?)
is that if your birthday showed up in positions 1 through 90 in the lottery, you would be drafted.

Our birthdays came up something like 24 the first year (not for 1952 lads), 180'ish the 2nd year, and
finally 339 in the year in which our lottery was conducted.

I didn't want to enlist and get killed for nothing in Vietnam, but that outlook caused me to never become
a veteran like my father (US Army, WWII) and my brother (US Navy, Aviation, 1979-1984).

SIA

The Annoyed Man wrote:I was worried about what my draft lottery number was going to be (turned out to be 339).

Mine was 017. I figured, "oh oh, here I go". Then they stopped the draft.

I didn't have a draft number, too old for that, but I got a draft notice anyway, so I dodged the draft by enlisting.

off subject...TAM and Surprise_I'm_armed, happy 60th tomorrow!!!

We periodically read, as a lesson to train like you fight, of a revolver-armed officer found dead with brass in his pocket, because the police range had a rule to put your brass in your pocket instead dumping it on the ground, so as to keep the range tidy. IIRC this has been attributed to the Newhall incident, but I don't know if that was true. Would fit with the tape on the shotgun mindset, tho.

I drove by the Newhall incident site when I was stationed in California. As I recall, it was pretty unremarkable place.

As to the draft -- I missed both drafts. I was too young for the Vietnam-era draft; when the new one started up, it covered those males born 1 Jan 60 and later. I was born in Nov 59. I remember being at Lackland AFB for AFROTC Field Training when they came around to handout the new draft registration forms. Nearly everyone else in my flight had to fill one out.

So Halt Halt Bang Halt BANG? I suppose you should have been grateful you actually had ammo....

ELB wrote:So Halt Halt Bang Halt BANG? I suppose you should have been grateful you actually had ammo....

Exactly, and in just about that amount of time, and we were grateful we had ammo, that was a first. It had its downside though, the only ones "trusted" to carry ammo were senior E4s and junior E5s (never did know what criterion they used to determine that) and that meant we were back walking sentry posts usually reserved for E2s and E3s.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:TAM and I share the same mm/dd/yyyy birthday (10/5/1952) and his mention of the draft lottery
was a blast from the past.

Whoa, you guys!
Mine is (10/6/1958). Happy birthday to both of you!