TexasCHLforum.com

Heard there was an instructor shot three times during CQB Training at TDSI last weekend. Anyone know anything more about what happened?

Here are some links discussing it, but really no details about what actually happened.

Apparently, it happened during a "Way of the Gun - Russian perspective" class with Sonny Puzika and Maxim Franz. A class instructor shot an assistant instructor three times in the shoothouse.

http://www.theakforum.net/phpBB3/viewto ... 4&t=187359" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an article discussing the incident from the viewpoint of "know whether your instructor is actually qualified":

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/11/08/cq ... out-there/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a fund raiser page for the instructor: https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/fNo03?ps ... 63fe87b530" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like a good time to remember that Cooper's Four Rules apply 100% of the time, even in training or during combat.


RULE 1: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

RULE 2: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

RULE 3: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

RULE 4: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

Ya, heard about it yesterday..
All the info I have seen is second hand stuff, No first hand account, no official response, or report that I know if.

This is the typical stuff out there.

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh"

At least he didn't shoot the student. Killing off your paying customers is bad for business.

Kwan Lee is doing a seminar and sending the proceeds to Gene, Kwan's site said he was shot 4 times. I have emailed Gene to see if he feels like telling more of the story. I have trained with Gene and Max, but not Sonny.

Gene is in a hospital in Dallas, he is stable and improving . That is all I found out so far.

Sad to hear. I'm a member of that range and love going there. I've never met Gene, but I hope he heals up quick.

bronco78 wrote:Ya, heard about it yesterday..
All the info I have seen is second hand stuff, No first hand account, no official response, or report that I know if.

This is the typical stuff out there.

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh"

There's a pretty good discussion of this incident over on Lightfighter, http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tp ... 3820974073. Although all second-hand reports have to be taken with a grain of salt, I trust the folks over there. Even from my vantage point, this situation is full of FAIL on the part of the instructor. The range owner apparently didn't have a clue as to what was going on, either, with his own range (included on page 2 of the thread is a cross post attributed to range owner Len Baxely).

Baxley's comments include this little quote attributed directly to Sonny Puzikas:

“I am going to do a run” and then I heard a person standing behind me respond to me saying, “OK” I did not turn around so I don’t know who said OK to me. I, wrongfully, assumed it was clear to go. I pulled my pistol out and set up and started coming around the corner like this. (Sonny then demonstrated to me how he did that, which was pieing the corner) I shot three quick shots at the far left target, then three quick shots at the far right target and then three quick shots at the close right target just inside the room. I then heard someone say, “You shot me”

This incident lies squarely on Puzikas. To even remotely attribute fault for this to the Assistant Instructor and a student inside the "shoot house" is ridiculous. Sonny was apparently trying to show off and screwed the pooch. The discussion on Lightfighter pulls no punches and violates the ROE for this forum, but it's an eye-opening read and good info for anyone wanting to take training.

I wholeheartedly agree with one of the posts on Lightfighter...the only thing missing was Sonny saying, "Hold my beer and watch this."

I think I know everything I need to know about Sonny, his training programs, and this range. Stay away...far away.

This is the typical stuff out there.

The range owner apparently didn't have a clue as to what was going on, either, with his own range (included on page 2 of the thread is a cross post attributed to range owner Len Baxely).

I've shot out there a few times in various classes. Interesting how folks are quick to judge.
I don't think people are "typically" shot out there.
We all seek good ranges and this is a great range. But the owner cannot be everywhere are once.
And as a shooter do you really want the range owner standing behind you constantly?

The fault lies with the instructor. There are many instructors on this site and all of you are held to a higher
standard. You want the certs and responsibility, you got it. I see nothing wrong the range owner did and I'm unaware
of something like this "typically" happening.

It definately was a bad situation. Yes perhaps procedures of the shoot house should change.
But Len's fault? I'm not so sure about that.

The person who pulled the trigger is at fault logically and ethically. Possibily legally too.

CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE. (a) A person commits an offense if he causes the death of an individual by criminal negligence.(b) An offense under this section is a state jail felony.

A person acts with criminal negligence, or is criminally negligent, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur.

Afff_667 wrote:

bronco78 wrote:Ya, heard about it yesterday..
All the info I have seen is second hand stuff, No first hand account, no official response, or report that I know if.

This is the typical stuff out there.

It happened during a shoot house portion, Gene and a student was doing an AAR after a run in the house. Sonny Puzikas enters first room engages targets (no lights). Gene and student did not positively ID their presence in the second room, Sonny goes into room two, engages target with failure drill with Gene standing in front of that target and the student nearby. Two to abdomen, one to the arm. Sonny shooting under no light at a target he previously set up. But the problem compounded when Sonny did not account for all people in the class, the people in the shoot house upon hearing the shots, did not ID their presence, and shooting in low light with out a light to ID target.......sigh"

There's a pretty good discussion of this incident over on Lightfighter, http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tp ... 3820974073. Although all second-hand reports have to be taken with a grain of salt, I trust the folks over there. Even from my vantage point, this situation is full of FAIL on the part of the instructor. The range owner apparently didn't have a clue as to what was going on, either, with his own range (included on page 2 of the thread is a cross post attributed to range owner Len Baxely).

Baxley's comments include this little quote attributed directly to Sonny Puzikas:

“I am going to do a run” and then I heard a person standing behind me respond to me saying, “OK” I did not turn around so I don’t know who said OK to me. I, wrongfully, assumed it was clear to go. I pulled my pistol out and set up and started coming around the corner like this. (Sonny then demonstrated to me how he did that, which was pieing the corner) I shot three quick shots at the far left target, then three quick shots at the far right target and then three quick shots at the close right target just inside the room. I then heard someone say, “You shot me”

This incident lies squarely on Puzikas. To even remotely attribute fault for this to the Assistant Instructor and a student inside the "shoot house" is ridiculous. Sonny was apparently trying to show off and screwed the pooch. The discussion on Lightfighter pulls no punches and violates the ROE for this forum, but it's an eye-opening read and good info for anyone wanting to take training.

I wholeheartedly agree with one of the posts on Lightfighter...the only thing missing was Sonny saying, "Hold my beer and watch this."

I think I know everything I need to know about Sonny, his training programs, and this range. Stay away...far away.

The Lightfighter link says I need to register and login to view the discussion? Anyway, I don't know Sonny, and although I've only spoken with the ranger owner, Len, a few times, I was impressed with how friendly and helpful he's been. I wouldn't necessarily view what happened as Len's fault, but I guess that's something for a court to decide if it ever gets to that point. I must say, though, that ever since I joined Len's range earlier this year, I've thoroughly enjoyed using it, have met some great folks and hope to continue going and using it.

Gene is back home an doing well, sill haven't talked to him to see what really happened by the view point of the one shot. His site says he is doing well and looking forward to teaching again soon.

WildBill let me know the correct abbreviation is TDSA, not TDSI. I corrected the original post. Thanks WildBill for the head's up.

This was a most unfortunate situation and brings back memories of the Navy SpecWar member that was shot while standing outside the shoothouse at MidSouth the second week in February, 2008. I hope the injured person recovers quickly and completely.

Both situations could have been prevented. The unfortunate thing is that everyone who sends rounds downrange thinks they are an "expert", everyone who thinks they are an "expert" begins to think they are an "Instructor", and those who think they are "Instructors" think they are "Tactical / CQB / CQC / whatever term is sexy today and gets the most people into a class" "Advanced Instructors". And every "Advanced Instructor" thinks they are qualified to run a shoothouse.

Was this individual certified by a recognized agency or school as a Shoot House Instructor? I see in the back ground of one of the photos what appears to be a tire house. Tire houses are not shoot houses, especially when you are using 7.62 X 39 or 5.45 X 39 steel jacketed projectiles (or, in the case of the Navy SpecWar Operator, 5.56 SS109 green tips).

Any Instructor worth their pay will have no trouble providing you with a Professional Vita listing their Instructor Certifications. If you have any doubts, just contact the certifying agency or organization and ask if Instructor so-and-so was certified on such-and-such a date. If the organization listed says, "Who?', well, you might have an indicator....

I only know of a handful of agencies and organizations that certify Shoot House Instructors. Most of the classes I've been through are not, "lets run through the house with the lights turned off and shoot the snot out of everything". A lot of time is dedicated to the construction, materials, and physical inspection of a shoothouse before you conduct any training to make certain that the shoothouse will ballistically "match" (stop) the ammo and projectiles you plan on using. Procedural safety includes a certified instructor loading all of the student's mags just prior to an exercise in the class, doing a walk through before going "hot", verbal commands and warnings ("Two coming out!" (pause) "Come out!") etc.

It's an unfortunate paradox that the best instructors I've trained with make it look so easy that everyone thinks that they, too can teach at that level. But not every shooter is an operator, and not every operator is an instructor, and not every instructor is an advanced instructor. No offense meant to anyone, but that's just how it is.