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I had an "event" yesterday while driving by the entrance to Randalls here in Galveston.

I was behind a Silver Lexus SUV, moving about 3~4 mph when three young males of African-American heritage wandered out to meet that vehicle, who came to a stop to talk to them. These guys got my attention immediately for several reasons; 1, they were wearing matching "uniforms" -- Black tshirts and Black "shorts". 2, they had the classic "punk-attitude walk and behavior" (you know what I mean) I was directly behind the vehicle, stopped. Meanwhile another vehicle came up behind me, and was also waiting for them to move on.

After about 15 seconds, a truck went by going the opposite way and shouted to these guys to "get out of the street". The guy at the SUV's window jestures to the truck driver and shouts back; "SSUUPP!" (I'm not sure how you spell this, but then again, I don't dedicate much time to translating "Gangsta" or "Ebonics").

I give these guys another 15 seconds, and then bump my horn. The SUV, after a couple more seconds, begins to move forward, and now the guy in the widow is looking at me...with obvious attitude. Then all three start moving towards my vehicle. The two with the leader seemed to give me less attention, but the guy at the SUV window crosses right in front of my vehicle (he could touch the hood) all the while staring at me and saying something, (couldn't really hear what, but I don't think he was apologizing for being in my way.) then turns, walking down the length of my car, still in arms length.
By now, I've already "ratcheted-up" my attention, and have now quietly slipped my Para .45 out of my Shoulder rig and tucked it under my leg, confirmed doors are locked, windows are up, seat belt unbuckled.

As "Junior" walks by my passenger window, assuming he saw the grip of my gun sticking out from under my leg, I hear him tell his friends, "He got a gun"[sic]...and kept walking.

Soon as I had the chance, I gassed it and got out of there...incident resolved with nothing more than an extreme Adrenaline rush and a pounding heart rate.
Mind you, this whole event, from start to stop, was about two minutes.

I had to wonder though, what would of happened if they didn't think I was armed. I was stuck between two vehicles, nowhere to run, with three gang members with attitudes walking around my car. Not good.

About 6 months earlier, I was walking towards the Seawall one evening, when I noticed three Hispanic males, ironically also wearing all Black, standing by a closed restaurant across the street about 40 yds from where I was walking.
One of them sees me looking their way, and gives me he "SSUUPP" hand/arm gesture. Really, I didn't even think at the time this was directed at me, so just just went on, minding my own business.

I walked to the Seawall and was walking back when I noticed one of the three broke off, and started coming towards me. Now he has my undivided attention. I kept a steady pace, all the while "junior" keeps coming, moving on a tracking trajectory putting him on a direct intercept course.
This guy came across a parking lot, across the South lanes of 61st St, across the Median and across one North Lane, putting him at about 10~12 feet from me when I stopped, faced him, and said in a notably "direct" voice, "Son, if you come any closer, I WILL kill you."

My statement must have been convincing, cause junior immediately changed course and moved off, with a sheepish grin on his face.

You know, I'm a peace-loving person. I cause no harm to anyone, and only seek to live my life in a quiet, respectful way.

Personally, I hate the idea that I have to arm myself with weapons designed specifically for "personnel-control". I'd much rather have a really nice target .22 to shoot long distance. But that has nothing to do with reality.
I'm a Scientist by nature. My "Core-Processor" is based on facts, information, logic and common sense.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the message from the Anti's--I mean, I know their heart is in the right place, wanting to reduce crime and all, but taking away all guns is so far off the mark, it has its own Orbit.

How is it that so much effort is expended trying to eliminate guns, when it's the BAD PEOPLE, not the guns, that are the root of the problem??

Listen, if you take away the guns, these Parasites will come at you with Knives. Take away the Knives, they'll use Clubs. Take all the Clubs, and they'll use Rocks, and if you take away the Rocks, they'll have their hands around your throat.

Taking away guns is NOT the answer. This is only treating a symptom. And quite frankly, having to arm ourselves from these criminals isn't an answer either.

How about both "sides" re-focus our efforts on the disease...the bad people who rob, hurt, kill and destroy innocent lives every day.

In my eyes, this Polar-opposite debate of gun control is fruitless at best, because hypothetically, even if either side "wins", we all lose.

We could eliminate these stupid, heinous Parasitic defects from our inventory. How about "One-Strike-You're-Out". Do violence on someone, rob someone, hurt someone...than it's "Adios Amigo"...you're going up for life. "You are no longer a threat."

Innocent lives are being lost here...EVERY DAY! Good people are being killed and maimed, families are destroyed, all because of some sub-human who wants what you have. Really?

To give someone a 7 year sentence, and serving maybe 2~3 years, is an insult to a victim who has to live with a disability for the rest of their life, because they were only almost murdered, let alone the psychological toll on them, and their families for the rest of their lives, and then have that POS get released, only to do it again!

It's time to stop being "fair" with these criminals. Use the same tactic they use on us. This isn't a game. Treat it as such. Cold. Hard. Reality.

I'm often reminded of the Crocodiles in Australia. As "Iconic" as the Kangaroo, the Crocodile is part of Australia's heritage, and was a protected species.
Problem was Crocs are a very hearty animal, reproduce in large numbers, grow to massive size, have a nasty disposition, and have Walnut-size Brains.

Many Aussie citizens were being eaten by Crocs, hundreds actually, and only after a 13 year old girl was taken and slowly torn apart in front of 150 horrified witnesses, did that Country's population say "ENOUGH!"
Public outcry demanded action. And they did. They removed the existing moratorium on Croc hunting, and every hunter with a gun took to shooting every Croc they could find.
After a few short months though, Croc kills became almost non-existent. Hunters and Game Officials were reporting finding no Crocs to hunt. In fact, no one could find any Crocodiles anywhere, except for a few very small ones. Fear grew that in their zeal to reduce Croc numbers, they inadvertently had decimated the entire species.

An immediate ban was put in place, and after almost a year, the Crocodiles slowly started showing up again...and large ones, in numbers.

In the end, the answer became obvious; researchers concluded that before when they were not hunted, Crocodiles had no fear of man. To a Croc, a Human was just another Prey item.

Once hunters started shooting them, the Crocs, even with their primitive Walnut-Brains, figured out that "Humans" meant "danger". So, whenever they saw humans...they split.
Fast forward to current times, Crocs are a protected species again, they've lost their fear of man again, and Human attacks have been on the rise ever since.

This same philosophy applies to criminals as well; We've seen a reduction of violent crimes, or at least successful ones--where an honest armed citizen protects themselves against a Predator.

Many crimes of violence we never hear about are when a person "re-thinks" their odds, wondering if that potential "victim" is really packin', and has a better-than-average chance of getting shot. We never hear those stats...but you can bet it's a fact.

You cannot reasonably expect a stupid person to respond to legislation, or a law. The only communication they respond to is on their own, primitive level. Fine. I copy. Acknowledged.

Speak to these people in a language they can understand: Either be a decent law-abiding citizen who respects other peoples' property and life, or get automatic life in prison, or a bullet.
NO SECOND CHANCE.

Seems to me if a Reptile with a Walnut-sized brain can get the message...after we put a few of these clowns away...the rest will find out we're serious...that we've had ENOUGH!

I have been a victim of a violent criminal...shot with a .357. I still carry the scars, live with the disability, and will live with the psychological trauma that will be with me forever.
I was unarmed then...NEVER AGAIN.
Until we "cull the herd" of these deviants, I will protect myself with the same force they bring to me.

But personally, I would gladly trade my "People guns" for a great target-quality .22 pistol, and be perfectly happy shooting paper targets and tin cans for the rest of my life.

I'm just sayin'...

Tango 1,

Welcome to the forum. Your post sets out in concrete form what many on this forum understand through logic and cautionary tales. Your analogy of crocodiles=criminals is, in my opinion, a good illustration and one that may even get through to some other "walnut brains". I do have a couple of points I'd like to make if you'll have them.

On your first incident, the thug realized at some point you had a gun. Either by seeing it or something about your eye contact or whatever. The fact you had a gun now comes into play. Your targets wisely decided to vacate the area and you in turn wisely removed yourself from the area. What I didn't get from your post was whether you called 911. Sometimes, in the aftermath of an adrenaline spiking incident we are so relieved when it is over we forget the house keeping. God forbid you find yourself in a similar situation and Lord willing it resolves as quietly; please call 911 and report it. There are myriad warnings and anecdotes on this forum where the BG calls in a MWAG call and the CHL is subjected to scrutiny by the local constabulary. Always try to be the first on record as your story will be the "official" one. Now if you did call 911 and just did not post same, then disregard and accept my compliments on a job well done. In the end everyone, especially you, went home safe.

On the second (prequel) incident you used the phrase, "If you come any closer I WILL kill you." It had the desired effect. However, a similar warning to what I wrote above, practice what you are going to say when encroached upon and DO NOT threaten to kill anybody. Some people differ slightly on the best course of verbal exchange but generally speaking, stop take an authoritative stance while holding up your non-gun hand and speak loudly and clearly, "STOP! Do not come any closer." The person may look at you like your nuts, shrug and walk off. If so, you win. The ne'er do well may realize you mean business and cancel the approach, if so you win. The cycle of escalation or deescalation is a continuum of action and reaction but if you go home, you win. And as above, if your weapon comes into play (hand on holstered weapon included) call 911 once you are disengaged.

Thirdly, you said you thought the antis' hearts were in the right place. I completely disagree. If you look at ANY anti gun organization or spokespeople, they are either about control and elitists or are rubes for someone like that behind the curtain as it were.

Again, welcome and I am glad you went home safe and without lasting consequence. Lord willing these incidents will be the limits of condition orange/red occasions you will ever have to face.

Like Dragonfighter, I'm glad everybody went home in one piece. There's so much paperwork these days when things escalate.

I made a decision a long time ago that my first line of "best defense" is to run over my assailants if I'm attacked when I'm in a vehicle. It's not justified to back up and run over them again, but honking the horn and hitting the gas TO ESCAPE is moral and ethical, whether or not the attackers are smart enough to get out of the way. If necessary I'm willing to have my lawyer explain in court why it was legally justified.

Would you have bumped your horn if you didn't have a firearm?

I would have found a way around and left the thugs alone. i avoid confrontation to the best of my ability. It aint worth it; this aint a school yard playground. my ego will recover if i walk away

maybe you had no options.

In order to offer a thorough response, and considering I have the memory of a snapping rubber-band, I will respond in-line;

Dragonfighter wrote:Tango 1,

Welcome to the forum. Your post sets out in concrete form what many on this forum understand through logic and cautionary tales. Your analogy of crocodiles=criminals is, in my opinion, a good illustration and one that may even get through to some other "walnut brains". I do have a couple of points I'd like to make if you'll have them.

On your first incident, the thug realized at some point you had a gun. Either by seeing it or something about your eye contact or whatever. The fact you had a gun now comes into play. Your targets wisely decided to vacate the area and you in turn wisely removed yourself from the area. What I didn't get from your post was whether you called 911. Sometimes, in the aftermath of an adrenaline spiking incident we are so relieved when it is over we forget the house keeping. God forbid you find yourself in a similar situation and Lord willing it resolves as quietly; please call 911 and report it.

***Thank you for the welcome Dragonfighter, It's a pleasure to be here.

Your thoughts are true and wise, and always welcomed.



There are myriad warnings and anecdotes on this forum where the BG calls in a MWAG call and the CHL is subjected to scrutiny by the local constabulary. Always try to be the first on record as your story will be the "official" one. Now if you did call 911 and just did not post same, then disregard and accept my compliments on a job well done. In the end everyone, especially you, went home safe.
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*** I did not call 911, given there was no other person who could see any sign of draw (quietly drawn from my overall favorite carry mode- Shoulder rig under a button up shirt (4-season carry method), except for junior, who was walking past the pax side of the car.

Next factor considered was there was no "personal contact" made, just another jerk with an attitude, unless he changed that dynamic.
Third, my thinking at the time was a 911 call would be fruitless (no arrests likely), but in retrospect, no less thanks to your reminder, the BG could cause grief by calling in a MWAG. You point is well taken.

Lastly, if I was/are pressed in the near future over this incident, I retrieved a copy of the store Surveillance Video about an hour after the incident, and gave the Manager a heads-up and description of the players. (Guess I forgot to mention the Video thing in my report)
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On the second (prequel) incident you used the phrase, "If you come any closer I WILL kill you." It had the desired effect. However, a similar warning to what I wrote above, practice what you are going to say when encroached upon and DO NOT threaten to kill anybody. Some people differ slightly on the best course of verbal exchange but generally speaking, stop take an authoritative stance while holding up your non-gun hand and speak loudly and clearly, "STOP! Do not come any closer." The person may look at you like your nuts, shrug and walk off. If so, you win. The ne'er do well may realize you mean business and cancel the approach, if so you win. The cycle of escalation or deescalation is a continuum of action and reaction but if you go home, you win. And as above, if your weapon comes into play (hand on holstered weapon included) call 911 once you are disengaged.

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*** While I don't disagree with you base-logic...it's right on the mark. However, for the situation I was in, and the type of perp involved, I think my "statement" to junior was also correct.
Yes, I did tell him I would kill him if he closed on me. I meant it too. A "Threat" is defined as a "statement of hostile action, without any intention of carrying it out." In that, I don't make threats.
I knew I was dealing, most likely, with an uneducated person of limited intelligence, who had already displayed a hostile attitude, who, to affirm my point, thinks being a punk in a gang is a good idea in the first place, and would walk some 40 yards to attack someone who was just minding their own business.

Your "STOP!" and hand gesture may have worked...but on the other hand, it could have been taken as a "fear-based" response, only fueling his confidence that he could "take me".
The reality was he could've too, since I didn't have a gun on me at the time...I was bluffing, but junior didn't know that.

I spoke "his" language. It rattled his cage enough to make him break-off his approach, even at the risk of "losing face" with his two other gang-member friends. That's not a good thing when "respect" is all-important to a gang member. Who knows, maybe he lost his GM Union card for tucking tail to one middle-age man with a Panama hat...
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Thirdly, you said you thought the antis' hearts were in the right place. I completely disagree. If you look at ANY anti gun organization or spokespeople, they are either about control and elitists or are rubes for someone like that behind the curtain as it were.

*** Please note that my comment about Anti's was not intended as a "blanket" statement. In fact, in most things I try not too "group" anything. It opens a door to "preconceived conclusions"...something as a Scientist, I try to avoid.

I agree that most any anti gun organization has an "agenda" far-fetched from the actual premise of their message (whatever that is...). I find it rather disingenuous when someone says we shouldn't have guns, when they're surrounded my ARMED SECURITY Personnel. Unless you're willing to present yourself as an equal, with equal standards, and an equal background of standards and experience, then your "message" falls on deaf ears as invalid. In other words; Shut the he!! up.

"We have a right to educate...we do NOT have a right to Dictate".

I was actually referring to the average citizen, uninformed, unwilling to face hard-facts, who think removing guns from our lives will somehow bring Nirvana. I wish it were that simple, but unfortunately, that philosophy has no base in reality.
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Again, welcome and I am glad you went home safe and without lasting consequence. Lord willing these incidents will be the limits of condition orange/red occasions you will ever have to face.

*** How I so wish that were true,for all of us, and this Country, but like my wish for a solid Gold toilet to accent my "Throne Room", I doubt that it will happen...

snorri wrote:Like Dragonfighter, I'm glad everybody went home in one piece. There's so much paperwork these days when things escalate.

I made a decision a long time ago that my first line of "best defense" is to run over my assailants if I'm attacked when I'm in a vehicle. It's not justified to back up and run over them again, but honking the horn and hitting the gas TO ESCAPE is moral and ethical, whether or not the attackers are smart enough to get out of the way. If necessary I'm willing to have my lawyer explain in court why it was legally justified.

Hi snorri,

Query: you sound as if you have direct experience in this area...this could be useful;

When backing up over a BG for the second time, should you disengage the Backup alarm on vehicles so equipped?

Texas_Blaze wrote:Would you have bumped your horn if you didn't have a firearm?

I would have found a way around and left the thugs alone. i avoid confrontation to the best of my ability. It aint worth it; this aint a school yard playground. my ego will recover if i walk away

maybe you had no options.

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*** Yes Sir, I would. I have in the past, and I will in the future. I'm not willing to give these clowns a free pass to be rude, stupid, ignorant or just plain hostile.
To do so only seems to empower them for more bad behavior. I don't reward stupidity. That being said, there have been many times that if I see a possible Orange mode traffic gig in time, I choose a different route out/around.

Also, for reference to the specific incident of subject, I had no place to go. The SUV was directly in front, no way to turn out without contact, and as the SUV started to move, "junior" stepped in front of my car.
There was a vehicle behind me, so backing out wasn't an option either.

You're right about ego...I give that foolish emotion a wide latitude in my life. There's a vast difference in saving-face vs. saving your life. Besides, I really don't have anything to have an ego about...

Prudence, Intelligence, Moderation and Common Sense are my best companions.

As Aviators say; "Any good landing, is the one you walk away from."

Tango 1 wrote:This guy came across a parking lot, across the South lanes of 61st St, across the Median and across one North Lane, putting him at about 10~12 feet from me when I stopped, faced him, and said in a notably "direct" voice, "Son, if you come any closer, I WILL kill you."

So let me get this straight...... You threatened to kill a man who was 10-12 feet away from you, hadn't said anything to you yet, hadn't displayed a weapon yet, and hadn't actually done anything except walk toward you.

What if he just wanted to bum a dime? What if he just wanted to give you some song and dance about needing $5 so he could "buy some gas"? You would have killed him over that?

Understand, I DO have some sympathy with your position, and I DO worry about the same things you worry about, but I believe that when you verbally threatened to kill him when he hadn't done or said anything to you, you broke the law.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... /PE.22.htm

Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury....

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(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (3) is a Class C misdemeanor

Sec. 22.07. TERRORISTIC THREAT. (a) A person commits an offense if he threatens to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to:
(1) cause a reaction of any type to his threat by an official or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies;
(2) place any person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury;

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(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a Class B misdemeanor

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm

Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

You did not yet have a situation where use of force was justified, and so you did not yet have a situation where the threat of force was justified.

When I say "justified", I mean "justified in the law". In point of fact, if this fine gentlemen had himself had a CHL and had just heard you tell him that you would kill him, he would have been justified to draw his gun and defend himself.

All I'm getting at is that you had better be careful what you say. Simply placing your hand near your gun might have been sign enough to the other guy to back off. Even a verbal command to back off would have been fine. But to threaten to kill somebody when they haven't done anything yet could get you into really hot water if overhead by the wrong person.......particularly if police who respond learn that you in fact had the means on your person of doing exactly that.

Welcome to the forum! Think of it this way. When you chose to get your CHL and when you choose to carry a firearm for self defense, you, in effect, give up your right to pick a fight. EVER. No ifs ands, or buts. You cannot afford to be an instigator in any situation. The honking of the horn, the threat to kill the kid walking towards you. Lawyers will eat this stuff up and put you away for good. The trick is to remove yourself from a situation before it has the chance to escalate. That or be forward thinking and try to avoid situations like this. (i.e. perhaps leave more room in front of your vehicle when you stop so you do have a way out.) You carry the greater responsibility here. Thugs will be thugs. You are not giving them a pass to be rude, ignorant, stupid, etc.

ffemt300 wrote:Welcome to the forum! Think of it this way. When you chose to get your CHL and when you choose to carry a firearm for self defense, you, in effect, give up your right to pick a fight. EVER. No ifs ands, or buts. You cannot afford to be an instigator in any situation. The honking of the horn, the threat to kill the kid walking towards you. Lawyers will eat this stuff up and put you away for good. The trick is to remove yourself from a situation before it has the chance to escalate. That or be forward thinking and try to avoid situations like this. (i.e. perhaps leave more room in front of your vehicle when you stop so you do have a way out.) You carry the greater responsibility here. Thugs will be thugs. You are not giving them a pass to be rude, ignorant, stupid, etc.

I don't think the honking of a horn when someone is impeding traffic is instigating a fight.

Right2Carry wrote:

ffemt300 wrote:Welcome to the forum! Think of it this way. When you chose to get your CHL and when you choose to carry a firearm for self defense, you, in effect, give up your right to pick a fight. EVER. No ifs ands, or buts. You cannot afford to be an instigator in any situation. The honking of the horn, the threat to kill the kid walking towards you. Lawyers will eat this stuff up and put you away for good. The trick is to remove yourself from a situation before it has the chance to escalate. That or be forward thinking and try to avoid situations like this. (i.e. perhaps leave more room in front of your vehicle when you stop so you do have a way out.) You carry the greater responsibility here. Thugs will be thugs. You are not giving them a pass to be rude, ignorant, stupid, etc.

I don't think the honking of a horn when someone is impeding traffic is instigating a fight.

Maybe not, but under the OPs circumstances it wasn't the prudent thing to do.

george wrote:Make it a point to never stop so close behind someone that you cannot drive around them.

This.

Tango 1,

I'm glad everything worked out with your encounters, but you need more information about your responsibilities as a CHL holder.

Look into Charles Cottons CHL and the law classes. They're always very interesting and could quite possibly keep you out of jail if you have another potentially violent encounter.

RHenriksen wrote:

george wrote:Make it a point to never stop so close behind someone that you cannot drive around them.

This.

Always leave yourself an out whenever possible, even in traffic. As previously posted, it allows one to get out of there if necessary.