Citizen's Police Academy - carry or not?

[mloamiller]

Citizen's Police Academy, held in the "community" room at the main police station, which also has a jail; no courts as far as I know. Nothing in the application nor the website says anything about guns or carrying with a CHL.

Mr. Cotton wrote in another thread “Police departments are not statutorily off-limits and they cannot render them off-limits via TPC §30.06. However, they can disarm CHLs entering the building under very limited circumstances (when a license holder enters a non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility) and one of the requirements is that they have lockboxes for the CHLs' handgun(s) (411.207)”

I think it’s safe to say the “community room” doesn't qualify as a”non-public secure portion” of the building, so my understanding is that I’m legally allowed to carry during these classes. If/when we take a tour of the detention portion of the building, then 411.207 kicks in. I know I could contact the officer in charge of the class and just ask, but it seems I then run the risk of him saying “no” for whatever reason. Things become more complicated at that point, and after all, “concealed is concealed.”

What are your thoughts? Would you carry, play it safe and leave it in the car, or contact the office and ask?

[RoyGBiv]

First week of class?
Best bet.... leave it at home or in the car and ask about the policy.
I'd wager that many urban CPA's have a ban on CC for participants in the program.
Definitely a case where I would ask before proceeding. It's unlikely you'll need your gun while in the police station. Low risk.

[joe817]

Is the Community Room an area accessible from coming right off the street? That is to say, it's an open area readily accessible to everyone? If it is, IMO it's a public area, like the foyer or the reception room.

If it's like Arlington PD, one has to be let in by the front desk clerk, through electrically locked doors. THAT'S a secure non-public area once inside.

I'd get more info just to be on the safe side.

[Keith B]

I will bet the rules of the CPA say no concealed firearms. And while the location you will be in may not be legally off limits, they could oust you from the program if found carrying.


As others have said, you may want to leave it in the vehicle until you know for sure if you can carry in the classes, as well as the location.

[kg5ie]

Check the by-laws of the organization. I doubt they want you to carry while participating in official events. The policy should be stated there. As for the building, I believe the areas where a LEO has to secure their weapon, you would have to secure yours. That said, the PD building would likely be a building paid for by public funds in most cases. We have no 30.06 posted at the PD building in my town.

Just my opinion. Your mileage and situation may vary.

[Sport Coach]

Went through Constable's CPA about 10 years ago and they were well aware some would be armed. We were simply asked to disarm in a back office when we came to class. The CPA classes were worth the time and I've found out since that each department has varying opportunities.

[mloamiller]

Below are some answers to questions that have been raised in this thread, and some additional comments.

"If it's like Arlington PD, one has to be let in by the front desk clerk, through electrically locked doors. THAT'S a secure non-public area once inside."
I don't know as I haven't been there, but if it is, then it would have to be clearly marked, per 411.207 - "(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a nonpublic, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice..."


"I will bet the rules of the CPA say no concealed firearms."
"Check the by-laws of the organization."
The only requirements/rules I can find on their website or the application itself are "Participants must possess a valid Texas driver’s license; agree to a criminal background check; be 21 years old or older; and not convicted of a felony." I know they did the background check, so I would think the have to already know I have a CHL. The application does state that I agree to "abide by all rules and regulations set forth..." but no where does it detail what those might be, other than the statement above.


"I will bet the rules of the CPA say no concealed firearms."
"I doubt they want you to carry while participating in official events."
As long as the class is held at the police headquarters, which shouldn't be 30.06 posted and can't be enforced if it is, and assuming the class is held in a public, non-secure area, can they legally prevent me from carrying? Other than when "the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual" of course (from 411.207).


"Best bet.... leave it at home or in the car and ask about the policy."
"I'd get more info just to be on the safe side."
While I think I understand the motivation behind these comments ("you may beat the rap, but not the ride") something troubles me about approaching it this way. The ability to defend myself is a right that is is protected by the constitution, as well as our state laws. As long as I am operating within the law (and I think it's pretty clear I would be, unless I've missed something), I shouldn't have to ask. If I do, doesn't it send the message that I don't really believe I have the right to carry, so I need their permission to do so? I don't ask permission to go to church (freedom of religion) or post something on a blog (freedom of speech), so why would I ask to legally carry a weapon for self-defense? It seems to me that one of the biggest hurdles the "pro-gun/self-defense" movement faces is convincing people that this is a basic right that can't/shouldn't be hindered. If we really believe that, shouldn't we act accordingly?
-- stepping down from soapbox

[Keith B]

Below are some answers to questions that have been raised in this thread, and some additional comments.

"If it's like Arlington PD, one has to be let in by the front desk clerk, through electrically locked doors. THAT'S a secure non-public area once inside."
I don't know as I haven't been there, but if it is, then it would have to be clearly marked, per 411.207 - "(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a nonpublic, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice..."


"I will bet the rules of the CPA say no concealed firearms."
"Check the by-laws of the organization."
The only requirements/rules I can find on their website or the application itself are "Participants must possess a valid Texas driver’s license; agree to a criminal background check; be 21 years old or older; and not convicted of a felony." I know they did the background check, so I would think the have to already know I have a CHL. The application does state that I agree to "abide by all rules and regulations set forth..." but no where does it detail what those might be, other than the statement above.


"I will bet the rules of the CPA say no concealed firearms."
"I doubt they want you to carry while participating in official events."
As long as the class is held at the police headquarters, which shouldn't be 30.06 posted and can't be enforced if it is, and assuming the class is held in a public, non-secure area, can they legally prevent me from carrying? Other than when "the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual" of course (from 411.207).


"Best bet.... leave it at home or in the car and ask about the policy."
"I'd get more info just to be on the safe side."
While I think I understand the motivation behind these comments ("you may beat the rap, but not the ride") something troubles me about approaching it this way. The ability to defend myself is a right that is is protected by the constitution, as well as our state laws. As long as I am operating within the law (and I think it's pretty clear I would be, unless I've missed something), I shouldn't have to ask. If I do, doesn't it send the message that I don't really believe I have the right to carry, so I need their permission to do so? I don't ask permission to go to church (freedom of religion) or post something on a blog (freedom of speech), so why would I ask to legally carry a weapon for self-defense? It seems to me that one of the biggest hurdles the "pro-gun/self-defense" movement faces is convincing people that this is a basic right that can't/shouldn't be hindered. If we really believe that, shouldn't we act accordingly?
-- stepping down from soapbox

There's legal and there's policy.

Legally, unless you are behind the secured area of the police station, then you can carry. if it is city property, then 30.06 is not enforceable unless it is a meeting of a government entity, which the CPA would not count.

Policy is what everyone is talking about. If you choose to not abide by the rules, then that is your choice. However, the 'I only follow what rules I want to' IMO is defeating the real reason for rules in the first place, especially since you are talking about a CPA and the police have a job of enforcing rules.

[RoyGBiv]

"Best bet.... leave it at home or in the car and ask about the policy."
"I'd get more info just to be on the safe side."
While I think I understand the motivation behind these comments ("you may beat the rap, but not the ride") something troubles me about approaching it this way. The ability to defend myself is a right that is is protected by the constitution, as well as our state laws. As long as I am operating within the law (and I think it's pretty clear I would be, unless I've missed something), I shouldn't have to ask. If I do, doesn't it send the message that I don't really believe I have the right to carry, so I need their permission to do so? I don't ask permission to go to church (freedom of religion) or post something on a blog (freedom of speech), so why would I ask to legally carry a weapon for self-defense? It seems to me that one of the biggest hurdles the "pro-gun/self-defense" movement faces is convincing people that this is a basic right that can't/shouldn't be hindered. If we really believe that, shouldn't we act accordingly?
-- stepping down from soapbox

If you want to build a constructive relationship with local law enforcement, is it really too much to sacrifice 15 minutes of being armed to go ask the person in charge of the class about their CHL policy?

No, it certainly does not send a message that you don't believe you have a right to carry.... It sends the message that you are a responsible person and want to find out the rules of the program before doing something that might be against policy.

Best case scenario.... The LEO you ask will slap you on the back, tell you it's ok and thank you for asking.
Worst case scenario... you carry your heater concealed into class and ask about the policy only to find out that they passed out a document that you didn't read completely and you get booted from class for violating the weapons policy.... and get local LE thinking you're "one of those guys" (like Kory).

[mloamiller]

If you choose to not abide by the rules, then that is your choice. However, the 'I only follow what rules I want to' IMO is defeating the real reason for rules in the first place, especially since you are talking about a CPA and the police have a job of enforcing rules.

Two thoughts - First, they haven't published any rules so far. Second, should their rules take precedence over the law? I guess that's the real question. Given that we're talking about a police station, one would hope they know the difference, but we all know that's not a given. "I know I'm legally allowed to carry during these classes, but do you have any rules that would prevent me from doing so?"

I know it's my choice; just curious about other's opinions.

[TVGuy]

Inside a police station is one place I'd be perfectly comfortable not being armed.

[mojo84]

The rules provided to us before the CPA I attended covered most of the pertinent things. However, it was silent on concealed carry except for during ride alongs if we chose to do one.

I carried except on the two or three occassions we met in the commissioners courtroom. I just wasn't real clear on that even though there wasn't any meetings going on.

Neither the sheriff nor his deputy blinked when it was time for the jail tour and I pulled my gun to secure it in the lockbox when the sheriff asked if anyone needed to secure a weapon. A couple of the fellow attendees had a bit of a surprised look though.

I figured if they didn't want us to carry they would have addressed it in the rules they provided. By the way, they did background checks on all of us prior to approving our application. They knew already who had chl's.

[MotherBear]

Personally, I'd just ask. They know you have a CHL, so its not like you're going to fly under the radar and you might as well cultivate some goodwill. If you don't like the answer, say so (politely). Whoever you're talking to may agree with you and be able to point to the next person up the line you should bring it up with (politely). Or, maybe they like the policy and you'll give them something to think on.

I've done one CPA with my CHL, and on the first day of class they said something to the effect of, "We know some of y'all have your CHLs. In case you didn't notice, this room we're meeting in is the municipal courtroom. We'll take a five-minute break now." Unfortunately, department policy says as volunteers (after graduation) we can't carry while representing or acting on behalf of the department. It has to do with their insurance policy, I'm told. My husband and I took the class separately and we each had a good conversation with the officer who coordinates it, to the effect that it's a stupid rule and doesn't incline many of us excellent law-abiding citizens to volunteer. He personally agrees with us, but to get it changed would involve the city changing its insurance, which means it's a lot of red tape. I may try to fight that battle, but at present we live outside the city limits so I don't have a lot of ground to stand on. So I'm disappointed, but I'm also encouraged that the individual officers I've spoken with have all been very supportive of CHL.

[nightmare69]

If you choose to not abide by the rules, then that is your choice. However, the 'I only follow what rules I want to' IMO is defeating the real reason for rules in the first place, especially since you are talking about a CPA and the police have a job of enforcing rules.

Two thoughts - First, they haven't published any rules so far. Second, should their rules take precedence over the law? I guess that's the real question. Given that we're talking about a police station, one would hope they know the difference, but we all know that's not a given. "I know I'm legally allowed to carry during these classes, but do you have any rules that would prevent me from doing so?"

I know it's my choice; just curious about other's opinions.

Just ask but as an LEO I can bet they don't allow CC. If you want to be apart of their program then I suggest you follow their rules. You may not have to legally disarm but they can kick you out of the program too. Anytime we as LEOs have to go through any force type training we have to disarm also and this is about 1/2 the time.

[PSTL*PAKR]

Inside a police station is one place I'd be perfectly comfortable not being armed.

___________________________________________________

GOOD ANSWER!!!!