TexasCHLforum.com

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:40 pm**

iS IT OK TO CARRY IN BIG BEND NATIONAL PARK IF I HAVE A CHL?

Posted: **Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:46 pm**

Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:00 pm**

locke_n_load wrote:Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.

If they are not posted with the 18 USC 930 notice you cannot be convicted for carrying into a federal facility.

18 USC 930
...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility...
...

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:31 pm**

I would not carry into a Federal facility on a dare, regardless of how it was posted.

Posted: **Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:57 pm**

Been to Big Bend plenty in last few years. Concealed carry is legal for sure in the park but if I remember the buildings are posted. Depending on the ranger you talk to they will just tell you about the rules or will be somewhat anti gun sounding. It's absolutely beautiful in the central and western part of the park. The eastern part of the park is more bland unless you do some strenuous hiking to remote locations. Enjoy!

Posted: **Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:44 pm**

Crash wrote:iS IT OK TO CARRY IN BIG BEND NATIONAL PARK IF I HAVE A CHL?

It is OK to carry in ANY National Park with a CHL that is recognized by the state where the park is located.

So, for example, you can carry in all the parks in NM, AZ, UT, WY that have reciprocity with TX, but not CA, OR or WA.

Posted: **Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:10 pm**

Thanks The Wife wants to go there.

Posted: **Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:23 am**

android wrote:It is OK to carry in ANY National Park with a CHL that is recognized by the state where the park is located.

One warning here. It is OK to carry in any National Park if the laws of that state allow carry in National Parks.

Simply having CHL reciprocity with that state is NOT SUFFICIENT, one must also ensure that the state allows carrying firearms in parks.

For just one example, Tennessee recognizes a Texas CHL. However, per TN 39-17-1311, concealed carry of handguns is prohibited in parks. Since it is illegal under state law, one also cannot carry in National Parks in Tennessee.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:26 am**

Jumping Frog wrote:
android wrote: ...Tennessee recognizes a Texas CHL. However, per TN 39-17-1311, concealed carry of handguns is prohibited in parks. Since it is illegal under state law, one also cannot carry in National Parks in Tennessee.

As I will be driving through Tennessee for several days this summer, and it is my practice to CC a handgun when driving, I took a close look at the gun laws of Tennessee recently.

Unless things have changed very recently, it is not cut-and-dried clear that one cannot CC a handgun in Tennessee parks. State law is arguably inconsistent on this point -- something lawyers can argue about endlessly, as is their fashion. Given this problem, about the best advice one can get from Tennessee authorities is that "it is recommended that one not CC a handgun in parks." There does not appear to be on record a court decision on this question, and efforts to get an attorney general's opinion on this rather politically loaded issue have been unsuccessful. It is the kind of question the state legislature may someday address.

I would certainly agree with that "recommendation," Bob, and intend to conduct myself accordingly should I enter a park on my travels through the state. I would not want to be the test case should this issue get into court.

Jim

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:50 am**

b322da wrote:
Jumping Frog wrote:
android wrote: ...Tennessee recognizes a Texas CHL. However, per TN 39-17-1311, concealed carry of handguns is prohibited in parks. Since it is illegal under state law, one also cannot carry in National Parks in Tennessee.
As I will be driving through Tennessee for several days this summer, and it is my practice to CC a handgun when driving, I took a close look at the gun laws of Tennessee recently.

Unless things have changed very recently, it is not cut-and-dried clear that one cannot CC a handgun in Tennessee parks. State law is arguably inconsistent on this point -- something lawyers can argue about endlessly, as is their fashion. Given this problem, about the best advice one can get from Tennessee authorities is that "it is recommended that one not CC a handgun in parks." There does not appear to be on record a court decision on this question, and efforts to get an attorney general's opinion on this rather politically loaded issue have been unsuccessful. It is the kind of question the state legislature may someday address.

I would certainly agree with that "recommendation," Bob, and intend to conduct myself accordingly should I enter a park on my travels through the state. I would not want to be the test case should this issue get into court.

Jim

It is clearly stated in the Tennessee laws. It's legal unless the county or municipality sets it as off limits. I would assume it would have to be posted to be enforceable. Since it does not say a park owned by the state, I would assume they would be legal for carry and could not be posted off-limits.

39-17-1311. Carrying Weapons on Public Parks, Playgrounds, Civic Centers and Other Public
Recreational Buildings and Grounds.
(a) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go
armed, any weapon prohibited by § 39-17-1302(a), not used solely for instructional, display or sanctioned
ceremonial purposes, in or on the grounds of any public park, playground, civic center or other building
facility, area or property owned, used or operated by any municipal, county or state government, or
instrumentality thereof, for recreational purposes.
(B) (1) The Provisions of Subsection (a) Shall Not Apply to the Following Persons:
(H) Persons possessing a handgun, who are authorized to carry the handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351, while
within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway
or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or
instrumentality thereof, except as otherwise provided in subsection (d);
(d) Notwithstanding subdivision (b)(1)(H), any municipality or county may prohibit, by resolution
adopted by a majority vote of its legislative body, persons authorized to carry a handgun pursuant to
§ 39-17-1351, from possessing the handgun while within or on a public park that is owned or
operated by a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. If a legislative body elects to prohibit
the possession of handguns within a park, the prohibition shall apply to the entire park,
notwithstanding subdivision (b)(1)(H). If the area is jointly owned or operated by municipalities or
counties, then a resolution adopted by a majority vote of all affected legislative bodies, voting
individually, is necessary for the municipalities or counties to prohibit persons authorized to carry a
handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351 from possessing the handgun while within the park.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:54 am**

ScottDLS wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.
If they are not posted with the 18 USC 930 notice you cannot be convicted for carrying into a federal facility.

18 USC 930
...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility...
...

Since it says it right there in your quote, doesn't that only apply to court facilities?

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:24 am**

Keith,

With the greatest of respect, Keith, the rub here is that Sec. 39-17-1311 refers to Sec. 39-17-1302(a), which lists many things, but not, explicitly, a handgun. As put by an attorney with the state of Tennessee some years ago:

I am afraid that Mr. ***** points out one of the several inconsistencies in the Tennessee gun law. He is correct that the prohibition against carrying a weapon on parks and playgrounds (Â§39-17-1311) references a code section (Â§39-17-1302) that does not seem to include a handgun. To be consistent, Â§39-17-1311 should refer to a weapon described in Â§39-17-1307 instead of 1302 which lists the weapons you cannot even carry with a permit like a machine gun or sawed off shotgun. There is a similar inconsistency in the section setting out the defenses for carrying a gun on school property. The reason the law has these inconsistencies is that all the prohibitions such as parks and playgrounds (Â§ 39-17-1311) and school property (Â§39-17-1309) and judicial proceedings (Â§39-17-1306) and places where alcohol is served (Â§39-17-1305) were all written long before the gun permit law as we know it was enacted. With the exception of the carrying where alcohol is served section, which as you know has been amended fairly recently, the other restrictions were carryovers of prior law by the sentencing commission in 1989. The handgun carry permit law in roughly its present form was not enacted until 1996. When the permit law was written, the other restrictions were not amended accordingly so they do not reference the permit law as they probably should. Nor were they amended to clearly state whether a person with a carry permit is or is not allowed to carry a firearm in those restricted locations. However, the section pointed out by Mr. ***** appears to me to more of an incorrect citation rather than an inconsistency.

That the gun law is in need of revision is something that has been known for quite some time by those of us who work in the area. Unfortunately, guns have become such a controversial topic, I am not sure a nonsubstantive rewrite of the law could be accomplished now.

Even though Mr. ***** is correct that Â§39-17-1311 does not seem to specifically prohibit handguns (with or without a permit), as an attorney I would not advise a client that it is lawful to carry a gun on park property even with a permit and as a permit holder I would not do so.

This statement, which would not be unfairly summarized as saying "I don't really know," is a prime example of fancy lawyerly footwork in order to avoid answering the question, and unless things have changed without my knowledge, which is of course possible, the issue remains one lawyers can play with, subject perhaps to ad hoc determinations by an LEO, a prosecutor, or a judge, which confirms my personal intention to not CC a handgun while in a park in Tennessee.

Jim

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:59 pm**

C-dub wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.
If they are not posted with the 18 USC 930 notice you cannot be convicted for carrying into a federal facility.

18 USC 930
...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility...
...
Since it says it right there in your quote, doesn't that only apply to court facilities?

no it says both, therefore posting requirement applies to both. Federal facility is a misdemeanor, federal court facility is a felony, but both require posting to be convicted, at least per the clear words of the statute. I truncated the posting for readability, but you can google the us code.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:05 pm**

locke_n_load wrote:Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.

I can say for absolute certainty that every building where concealed carry is prohibited, is posted...

Because I am one of the Rangers that will say, "you are welcome to carry, as long as you keep it concealed and don't bring them into prohibited buildings"

Sport Coach wrote:Been to Big Bend plenty in last few years. Concealed carry is legal for sure in the park but if I remember the buildings are posted. Depending on the ranger you talk to they will just tell you about the rules or will be somewhat anti gun sounding. It's absolutely beautiful in the central and western part of the park. The eastern part of the park is more bland unless you do some strenuous hiking to remote locations. Enjoy!

The vast majority of my co workers are anti gun, and they get a twist in their panties when someone even mentions guns.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:41 pm**

Terlingueno wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:Yes. However, you cannot carry into federal buildings (ranger's office, gift shop, check-in building, etc.), even though they may not be posted with any kind of warning.
I can say for absolute certainty that every building where concealed carry is prohibited, is posted...

Because I am one of the Rangers that will say, "you are welcome to carry, as long as you keep it concealed and don't bring them into prohibited buildings"

Sport Coach wrote:Been to Big Bend plenty in last few years. Concealed carry is legal for sure in the park but if I remember the buildings are posted. Depending on the ranger you talk to they will just tell you about the rules or will be somewhat anti gun sounding. It's absolutely beautiful in the central and western part of the park. The eastern part of the park is more bland unless you do some strenuous hiking to remote locations. Enjoy!
The vast majority of my co workers are anti gun, and they get a twist in their panties when someone even mentions guns.

This is very good information from a person like yourself who KNOWS! Thanks!

I work in a lot of Federal facilities in my current employment. The interesting thing is that many of them are not posted IAW 18 USC 930. I believe the reason is that most of them are in states where you couldn't carry anyway (hence one could be charged under state law since Feds observe concurrent jurisdiction).

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