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No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:48 pm
by Rmartinez37
Good afternoon everyone, I have a rather newbie question.
There are a few places I go to that have no signs pertaining to firearms, no 30.06/30.07 or the sign reading "unlicensed possesion of a firearm is punishable by....."
If there are no signs whatsoever, can I still carry here?
Thanks in advance for the input!!!
Re: No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:23 pm
by jrs_diesel
You sure can, unless the place in question is already off limits without the signs (courthouse, police station, schools, etc).
Re: No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:34 pm
by oljames3
Rmartinez37 wrote:Good afternoon everyone, I have a rather newbie question.
There are a few places I go to that have no signs pertaining to firearms, no 30.06/30.07 or the sign reading "unlicensed possesion of a firearm is punishable by....."
If there are no signs whatsoever, can I still carry here?
Thanks in advance for the input!!!
IANAL
Effective notice can be signs, written communication, or verbal communication.
However, places that are prohibited by law do not require 30.06 or 30.07 notice. See Texas Penal Code Title 10, Chapter 46, sections 46.03 and 46.035.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... .htm#46.03
If there are no signs in a non-prohibited place, and you are licensed, you can carry openly or concealed unless the owner or one "with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication." Exceptions and defenses apply.
See Texas Penal Code Title 7, Chapter 30, Sections 30.06 and 30.07
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm
Verbal communication can be as simple as "No guns."
Written has requirements:
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
The statutes have no other requirement for the written communication other than the exact wording.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:21 pm
by Pawpaw
jrs_diesel wrote:You sure can, unless the place in question is already off limits without the signs (courthouse, police station, schools, etc).
Police stations are not off-limits.
GC §411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM. (a) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder.
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer’s official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if the law enforcement agency provides a gun locker where the peace officer can secure the license holder’s handgun. The peace officer shall secure the handgun in the locker and shall return the handgun to the license holder immediately after the license holder leaves the non-public, secure portion of the law enforcement facility.
(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a nonpublic, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice in both English and Spanish that, under this section, a peace officer may temporarily disarm a license holder when the license holder enters the non-public, secure portion of the facility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height. The sign shall be displayed in a clearly visible and conspicuous manner.
(d) In this section:
(1) “Law enforcement facility” means a building or a portion of a building used exclusively by a law enforcement agency that employs peace officers as described by Articles 2.12(1) and (3), Code of Criminal Procedure, and support personnel to conduct the official business of the agency. The term does not include:
(A) any portion of a building not actively used exclusively to conduct the official business of the agency; or
(B) any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk, walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.
(2) “Non-public, secure portion of a law enforcement facility” means that portion of a law enforcement facility to which the general public is denied access without express permission and to which access is granted solely to conduct the official business of the law enforcement agency.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
by Rmartinez37
Thank you very much for clearing that up for me.
I'm always watching out for signs, and if I see a 30.06, I'll generally take my business elsewhere, unless I have no choice.
I always wondered about places with no signage, no I know
Re: No signs question
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:43 pm
by jrs_diesel
Pawpaw wrote:jrs_diesel wrote:You sure can, unless the place in question is already off limits without the signs (courthouse, police station, schools, etc).
Police stations are not off limits.
I stand corrected
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:31 am
by casp625
jrs_diesel wrote:Pawpaw wrote:jrs_diesel wrote:You sure can, unless the place in question is already off limits without the signs (courthouse, police station, schools, etc).
Police stations are not off limits.
I stand corrected
Technically, the public area is not off limits and they DO need a sign otherwise...
Sec. 411.207. AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.
...
(b) A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may temporarily disarm a license holder when a license holder enters a nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility, if the law enforcement agency provides a gun locker where the peace officer can secure the license holder's handgun. The peace officer shall secure the handgun in the locker and shall return the handgun to the license holder immediately after the license holder leaves the nonpublic, secure portion of the law enforcement facility.
(c) A law enforcement facility shall prominently display at each entrance to a nonpublic, secure portion of the facility a sign that gives notice in both English and Spanish that, under this section, a peace officer may temporarily disarm a license holder when the license holder enters the nonpublic, secure portion of the facility. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height. The sign shall be displayed in a clearly visible and conspicuous manner.
...
(2) "Nonpublic, secure portion of a law enforcement facility" means that portion of a law enforcement facility to which the general public is denied access without express permission and to which access is granted solely to conduct the official business of the law enforcement agency.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:08 am
by mojo84
Courthouses with non-court related departments are not automatically off limits by statute either. The area where courtrooms are located and courts themselves are statutorily off-limits.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:36 am
by n5wmk
And US Post Offices are off limits, with or without a sign.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:40 am
by Rmartinez37
n5wmk wrote:And US Post Offices are off limits, with or without a sign.
yup, even prohibited in the parking lot at post offices from what I saw on the sign at my local post office.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:54 am
by longhorn86
oljames3 wrote:
If there are no signs in a non-prohibited place, and you are licensed, you can carry openly or concealed unless the owner or one "with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication." Exceptions and defenses apply.
After Jan 1, of course.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:00 am
by ScottDLS
Rmartinez37 wrote:n5wmk wrote:And US Post Offices are off limits, with or without a sign.
yup, even prohibited in the parking lot at post offices from what I saw on the sign at my local post office.
The federal law banning post office carry requires posting a 18 USC 926 sign, so if they don't then you could technically carry in the post office without being prosecuted. The parking lot carry ban is questionable, especially without a sign, and the penalty is the equivalent to speeding ticket in DC.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:51 pm
by Pawpaw
casp625 wrote:jrs_diesel wrote:Pawpaw wrote:jrs_diesel wrote:You sure can, unless the place in question is already off limits without the signs (courthouse, police station, schools, etc).
Police stations are not off limits.
I stand corrected
Technically, the public area is not off limits and they DO need a sign otherwise...
Which is exactly why I posted GC §411.207 in it's entirety and highlighted the relevant sections.
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:44 pm
by viking1000
My post office has no signs up, I live in the Hill Country. I asked once about a year ago and was told , We don't care....
Re: No signs question
Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:35 pm
by mojo84
viking1000 wrote:My post office has no signs up, I live in the Hill Country. I asked once about a year ago and was told , We don't care....
I think that may only be a defense to prosecution. However, it's probably a slim chance of any finding out.