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Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:32 pm
by VMI77
http://www.wired.com/2011/01/navys-new- ... p-or-both/

Funny as the SS Gaby Giffords satire was, it was far too close to reality, and funny the reality is not. These Littoral ships are floating coffins should they ever encounter a real enemy. They make the old saying that there are two kinds of ships, submarines and targets, even more literal for our enemies.
But to get those low, low prices, the ships will be built to commercial, rather than military, structural standards — meaning they’re lighter and less blast- and fire-resistant. Indeed, the Navy does not plan to subject the LCS to traditional blast-testing, “due to the damage that would be sustained by the ship,” the Congressional Research Service points out.

The LCS also optimizes speed over weaponry. Lockheed’s version has what Operations Officer Tony Hyde, from USS Freedom (the first Lockheed prototype), described as “the largest marine gas turbines in the world — essentially the engines of a 777 jetliner.”

The turbines’ 100,000 horsepower can propel the LCS at up to 50 knots, compared to 30 for most warships. But that high speed “will eat through a fuel supply in half a day,” the USNI critic scoffs.

Former Freedom commanding officer Don Gabrielson said in 2008 that high speed could help the LCS respond better to pirate attacks and assaults by small boats, such as those used by Iran. But an extra 20 knots aren’t likely to make much difference if someone’s shooting supersonic anti-ship missiles at you, whereas extra armor plating just might.
So the Navy is building ships to fight "pirates" in Bass Boats. I guess there is no need for blast and fire resistant combat vessels in a politically correct Navy anyway. And then there's this:

http://www.wired.com/2011/06/shipbuilde ... ntegrates/
The afflicted vessel is USS Independence, the second in the sailing branch’s fleet of fast, reconfigurable Littoral Combat Ships. Eventually, these ships are supposed to be the workhorses” of tomorrow’s Navy.
As Bloomberg reported, the Navy has discovered “aggressive” corrosion around Independence‘s engines. The problem is so bad that the barely year-old ship will have to be laid up in a San Diego drydock so workers can replace whole chunks of her hull.
Lots of things — major weapons, for one — have been left off the LCS in order to keep the price down. The list of deleted items includes something called a “Cathodic Protection System,” which is designed to prevent electrolysis
Civilian scientists know it as “electrolysis.” It’s what occurs when “two dissimilar metals, after being in electrical contact with one another, corrode at different rates,” Austal explained in a statement.

“That suggests to me the metal is completely gone, not rusted,” naval analyst Raymond Pritchett wrote of Independence‘s problem.

Independence‘s corrosion is concentrated in her water jets — shipboard versions of airplane engines — where steel “impeller housings” come in contact with the surrounding aluminum structure. Electrical charges possibly originating in the ship’s combat systems apparently sparked the electrolysis.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:53 pm
by baldeagle
I spent 6 years in the Navy ('68-'74). I wouldn't spend 6 minutes in the "modern" Navy. It's becoming a complete joke.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:03 pm
by chandler583
Sounds like we need to recommission the USS Missouri and USS Wisconsin. Maybe build that proposed Montana class ship, it would be faster than the Iowa class with more firepower, but less armor.

The modern navy seems to be building for quantity rather than quality. I don't expect the service of these ships to be nearly as long as their predecessors. The USS Gerald Ford seems to be pretty cool, but not sure about armor/speed as I'm assuming that will be classified.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:06 pm
by Beiruty
It looks like a Coast Guard Vessel.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:12 pm
by RoyGBiv
Not sure why they don't add attack helicopters for fighting pirates? Clear some deck space or build a platform off the stern.
I don't know squadoosh about Naval tactics, but, I know a Cobra or Viper armed with Hellfires can outrun a pirate yacht by a wide margin.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:20 pm
by BigGuy
Sounds like a $450 million PT boat.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:27 pm
by RoyGBiv
RoyGBiv wrote:Not sure why they don't add attack helicopters for fighting pirates? Clear some deck space or build a platform off the stern.
I don't know squadoosh about Naval tactics, but, I know a Cobra or Viper armed with Hellfires can outrun a pirate yacht by a wide margin.
Clarification... I was talking about adding helicopters to existing surface vessels being used to combat pirates, not to these LCS's.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:36 pm
by VMI77
RoyGBiv wrote:Not sure why they don't add attack helicopters for fighting pirates? Clear some deck space or build a platform off the stern.
I don't know squadoosh about Naval tactics, but, I know a Cobra or Viper armed with Hellfires can outrun a pirate yacht by a wide margin.
I don't think the current administration really wants to fight pirates. We have all the ability to fight pirates we need. Do pirates attack Navy vessels or do they go after merchant vessels they can hold for ransom? Where's the pirate treasure in attacking naval vessels? We could stop pirates from attacking any ship we didn't want attacked by putting a squad of well armed Marines on board.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:45 pm
by chandler583
VMI77 wrote:I don't think the current administration really wants to fight pirates. We have all the ability to fight pirates we need. Do pirates attack Navy vessels or do they go after merchant vessels they can hold for ransom? Where's the pirate treasure in attacking naval vessels? We could stop pirates from attacking any ship we didn't want attacked by putting a squad of well armed Marines on board.
That's providing these merchant vessels, which are often owned by non-American companies allow that to happen. I am no expert, but I think that may raise an issue with the international definition of "Merchant Vessel".

Quote corrected, sorry for the confusion/misrepresentation RoyGBiv :banghead:

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:56 pm
by VMI77
chandler583 wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:I don't think the current administration really wants to fight pirates. We have all the ability to fight pirates we need. Do pirates attack Navy vessels or do they go after merchant vessels they can hold for ransom? Where's the pirate treasure in attacking naval vessels? We could stop pirates from attacking any ship we didn't want attacked by putting a squad of well armed Marines on board.
That's providing these merchant vessels, which are often owned by non-American companies allow that to happen. I am no expert, but I think that may raise an issue with the international definition of "Merchant Vessel".
True....but if you really want to stop piracy, it's a lot cheaper than building $450 ships that won't stop piracy. The owners would have a choice....they want protection, they get Marines. They don't want Marines and they get hijacked...they're on their own. Once pirates have taken a ship it's too late for a naval vessel to do anything but serve as a staging platform for an assault that is now much more dangerous than it would have been to defend the ship in the first place.

But I don't think there is really much interest in stopping piracy, nor are there a lot of pirates plying their trade along the US coastline, so claiming an intent to engage pirates is essentially making a claim to conduct operations along foreign coastlines. Any intervention on our part should only occur if it is in our best interest. For instance, as far as I'm concerned, pirates can take all the French ships they want and if the French allow it....that's their problem.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:00 pm
by chandler583
I agree, piracy is a problem, but until it starts affecting American sailors and American shipping, the US will provide minimal effort in deterring piracy. The Maersk Alabama had a large number of American crewmen, but more importantly, registered as a US vessel with a port of Norfolk Virginia.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:08 pm
by Jago668
If it is a US ship and the company is willing to help offset the cost of putting a squad of marines on board I don't see an issue. Now how that interacts with laws in other countries, international treaties, etc; I have no clue.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:44 pm
by RoyGBiv
chandler583 wrote:
NOT From RoyGBiv wrote:I don't think the current administration really wants to fight pirates. We have all the ability to fight pirates we need. Do pirates attack Navy vessels or do they go after merchant vessels they can hold for ransom? Where's the pirate treasure in attacking naval vessels? We could stop pirates from attacking any ship we didn't want attacked by putting a squad of well armed Marines on board.
That's providing these merchant vessels, which are often owned by non-American companies allow that to happen. I am no expert, but I think that may raise an issue with the international definition of "Merchant Vessel".
Just FYI... Your post attributes that quote to me, but it wasn't from me. Looks like you deleted the wrong attribution when you quoted only part of post 8.

The part you quoted was from VMI77:
VMI77 wrote:
RoyGBiv wrote:Not sure why they don't add attack helicopters for fighting pirates? Clear some deck space or build a platform off the stern.
I don't know squadoosh about Naval tactics, but, I know a Cobra or Viper armed with Hellfires can outrun a pirate yacht by a wide margin.
I don't think the current administration really wants to fight pirates. We have all the ability to fight pirates we need. Do pirates attack Navy vessels or do they go after merchant vessels they can hold for ransom? Where's the pirate treasure in attacking naval vessels? We could stop pirates from attacking any ship we didn't want attacked by putting a squad of well armed Marines on board.
Just clarifying... no blood, no foul. ;-)

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:53 am
by gregthehand
You guys realize there hasn't been a surface engagement between a US Navy ship and a foreign enemy ship since WWII right? Well, actually there was one. The USS Simpson blew an Iranian gunboat out of the water in 1988. Other than that you guys want to spend a ton of extra money on a boats that can sustain damage that our fleet has not had sustain since WWII.

Re: Littoral "Combat" Ships...Bargain, Death Trap, or Both?

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:04 am
by Distinguished Rick
So now Bass Pro Shops is a military contractor. Who knew.