TexasCHLforum.com

http://imgur.com/29zsVfP

Apparently teens are riding around in cars in the Sienna Plantation near Houston and shooting people and pets with BB Guns.

It seems in Texas that this would be a very dangerous thing for a teen to do.

Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?

philip964 wrote:Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?

I would think so, judging from our penal code: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm

I am no lawyer, but it seems to me that if someone is committing a felony, and you're not necessarily able to perceive the caliber of weapon they're firing as they're riding around, you could return fire. The issue is with pursuit - I am nearly 100% certain that if you left in pursuit of them, and then used deadly force, you'd be guilty of a crime.

philip964 wrote:
Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?

To use deadly force would require that you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary, and that you or another is in jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I doubt a BB gun would (other than the rarest of circumstances) cause death; however it could easily put out an eye which I believe would meet the definition of...'permanent or protracted loss of an organ or bodily function..' (I'm paraphrasing).

Not to downplay the use of deadly force, but the saying "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.

A BB shot with enough power can not only cause permanent blindness, but could penetrate to the brain, i.e., cause death.

I hope local LE isn't only suggesting people stay indoors, (I can't begin to express my disgust with this particular suggestion...) but are actively searching for the criminals.

While I don't believe I would use deadly force against someone knowingly using a BB gun. But in the heat of the moment, if it looks like a gun and acts like a gun, my guess is most will think gun. I haven't seen/heard a lot of the air powered BB guns in action so I can't say, but I will say the closest thing I do have for reference, is a paintball 'marker' (gun). The higher quality paintball guns sound like a gun most of the time, especially from a bit of distance. I suspect they keep this up they are going to 'win stupid prizes' as Mike pointed out, most likely in the form of 9mm or larger.

Shoot at me and I am shooting back.

Mike S wrote: ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.

The Air Rifle standing at the entrance way used to dispatch squires teasing the dogs is as lould or louder than a .22 rifle (firing not a sonic crack)

If this is an on-going issue, eventually someone should get a license plate number and vehicle description. Let's hope that happens soon so these punks can be locked up before they are put down.

remanifest wrote:The issue is with pursuit - I am nearly 100% certain that if you left in pursuit of them, and then used deadly force, you'd be guilty of a crime.

I think this depends on exactly what happened prior to the use of deadly force. Pursuit would be 100% legal. And you would have no duty to retreat if these perps decided to attack instead of fleeing. But I do agree that chasing them down and then shooting them with no further provocation would be a bad idea.

The best idea, IMHO would be to get a LP number and description of the vehicle and the suspects. If the car is not stolen, it should be pretty easy for LEO's to take it from there.

Mike S wrote:

philip964 wrote:
Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?

To use deadly force would require that you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary, and that you or another is in jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I doubt a BB gun would (other than the rarest of circumstances) cause death; however it could easily put out an eye which I believe would meet the definition of...'permanent or protracted loss of an organ or bodily function..' (I'm paraphrasing).

Not to downplay the use of deadly force, but the saying "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.

I've got a .22 caliber pellet gun, that I would bet every last dollar I own, would most definitely kill a human. It's capable of well over 1000fps. Air rifles have come a LONG way from the Red Ryder that we all probably owned at one point.

Ryan wrote:

Mike S wrote:

philip964 wrote:
Would it be legal to use deadly force to defend yourself?

To use deadly force would require that you reasonably believe that it is immediately necessary, and that you or another is in jeopardy of death or serious bodily injury. I doubt a BB gun would (other than the rarest of circumstances) cause death; however it could easily put out an eye which I believe would meet the definition of...'permanent or protracted loss of an organ or bodily function..' (I'm paraphrasing).

Not to downplay the use of deadly force, but the saying "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" comes to mind.

ETA: Another consideration is that a reasonable person could mistake the sound of a BB gun firing, especially a CO2 powered one, for a .22 pistol. It boils down to what the defender (or defendant if it comes to that..) reasonably believed in the heat of the moment.

I've got a .22 caliber pellet gun, that I would bet every last dollar I own, would most definitely kill a human. It's capable of well over 1000fps. Air rifles have come a LONG way from the Red Ryder that we all probably owned at one point.

Here's a ballistic gel test some guy did comparing different brands/styles of pellets. (I have no idea how scientific his process was; anyone can post anything to the Internet).

http://ballisticsgel.blogspot.com/2008/ ... l.html?m=1

His test was from an air gun somewhere in the upper 800fps range, with different pellets, using a piece of leather to simulate skin, & conducted at 5'. At 5' from the target, his best penetration ranged from 6" - 8 3/4".

So yes, a pellet gun CAN kill a person. I'm sure if I'd Googled 'pellet gun fatalities' there'd be more than one example.

I don't want to sound argumentative, however, but just because it COULD kill doesn't change my mind as to the probability of it causing death. That's where the totality of the circumstances play a role. If someone is shot with your 1000+ fps (muzzle velocity) pellet rifle pushing a 15-grain pellet from across the dinner table it would definitely break skin, & if not obstructed by heavy clothing might well penetrate deep enough to reach vital areas or cause internal hemorrhage. However, if hit from the same 15-grain pellet from across the yard there's significant velocity loss & much less likely that it would kill a person.

In the end, if I reasonable believed that I was at risk of death OR serious bodily injury (as Texas law allows) the response would likely be very similar regardless of the instrument (BB gun/real gun/#2 pencil aimed at my neck at grappling range). It boils down to what a reasonable response to the threat would be, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

My Gammo Whisper supposedly can get up to 1200 fps. Much more than your old fashioned Daisy. I am sure if it hit an appropriate spot it might kill a human. Shooting at a car with a bunch of teens and possibly killing one would be a tough sell in court. There is no easy answer for this one except to duck down and let the police handle it.

There is a reason toy guns have those orange tips on them; to keep police and other people from thinking you have a weapon that can do them harm. A BB gun has no such orange tip. If I saw a random stranger pointing one at me, I am not going to take the time to try to figure out if it is a BB gun or something else. Absent of an orange tip, I am going to assume it is something that can do me harm and take appropriate action.

Flightmare wrote:There is a reason toy guns have those orange tips on them; to keep police and other people from thinking you have a weapon that can do them harm. A BB gun has no such orange tip. If I saw a random stranger pointing one at me, I am not going to take the time to try to figure out if it is a BB gun or something else. Absent of an orange tip, I am going to assume it is something that can do me harm and take appropriate action.

This is exactly why people get killed pointing air guns at cops. You can't tell the difference. Many of them look almost identical to real firearms.

I'm not betting my or my family's lives on the presence or absence of an orange tip. It takes only a few seconds to put orange paint on any firearm.