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Hi all,

My dad has a collector's set of four shotguns that he'd like to value and possibly sell. He's in Illinois and I'm in the DFW area so I'm trying to advise him and my four brothers, all of whom are in Illinois, from a distance. I may have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and head up there but before I do that, I wondered if anyone here could give me some pointers.

We think the guns are Winchester Model 21. Indications are they have never been fired. I believe he has them in 12, 16, 20, and .410 gauge. I don't know the specific models or the engraving patterns, and I understand that's important in determining value.

There is a tremendous amount of information out on the net about the Winchester Model 21. I've read a bit of it, but there's so much stuff it's hard to understand what's good information and what's not.

I did a search here on "Winchester Model 21" and didn't find anything. Apologies if I missed something that's already available.

Any pointers on how to figure out what these guns are worth would be appreciated.

Thanks!

FrogFan wrote:Hi all,

My dad has a collector's set of four shotguns that he'd like to value and possibly sell. He's in Illinois and I'm in the DFW area so I'm trying to advise him and my four brothers, all of whom are in Illinois, from a distance. I may have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and head up there but before I do that, I wondered if anyone here could give me some pointers.

We think the guns are Winchester Model 21. Indications are they have never been fired. I believe he has them in 12, 16, 20, and .410 gauge. I don't know the specific models or the engraving patterns, and I understand that's important in determining value.

There is a tremendous amount of information out on the net about the Winchester Model 21. I've read a bit of it, but there's so much stuff it's hard to understand what's good information and what's not.

I did a search here on "Winchester Model 21" and didn't find anything. Apologies if I missed something that's already available.

Any pointers on how to figure out what these guns are worth would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Without seeing them and determining their condition, it will be impossible to give anything close to a good estimate on value. Even if they are "unfired", how they are stored, and maintained will be the determining factor. If you can get pictures, it will be easier for someone to give a better estimate.

Jusme wrote:

FrogFan wrote:Hi all,

My dad has a collector's set of four shotguns that he'd like to value and possibly sell. He's in Illinois and I'm in the DFW area so I'm trying to advise him and my four brothers, all of whom are in Illinois, from a distance. I may have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and head up there but before I do that, I wondered if anyone here could give me some pointers.

We think the guns are Winchester Model 21. Indications are they have never been fired. I believe he has them in 12, 16, 20, and .410 gauge. I don't know the specific models or the engraving patterns, and I understand that's important in determining value.

There is a tremendous amount of information out on the net about the Winchester Model 21. I've read a bit of it, but there's so much stuff it's hard to understand what's good information and what's not.

I did a search here on "Winchester Model 21" and didn't find anything. Apologies if I missed something that's already available.

Any pointers on how to figure out what these guns are worth would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Without seeing them and determining their condition, it will be impossible to give anything close to a good estimate on value. Even if they are "unfired", how they are stored, and maintained will be the determining factor. If you can get pictures, it will be easier for someone to give a better estimate.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm really not looking for a value estimate, just some pointers on what steps to cover to help determine their value. The guns are in individual cases and stored in a gun safe, and they've been kept there for 20 years, I think (but I'm not sure).

FrogFan wrote:Hi all,

My dad has a collector's set of four shotguns that he'd like to value and possibly sell. He's in Illinois and I'm in the DFW area so I'm trying to advise him and my four brothers, all of whom are in Illinois, from a distance. I may have to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and head up there but before I do that, I wondered if anyone here could give me some pointers.

We think the guns are Winchester Model 21. Indications are they have never been fired. I believe he has them in 12, 16, 20, and .410 gauge. I don't know the specific models or the engraving patterns, and I understand that's important in determining value.

There is a tremendous amount of information out on the net about the Winchester Model 21. I've read a bit of it, but there's so much stuff it's hard to understand what's good information and what's not.

I did a search here on "Winchester Model 21" and didn't find anything. Apologies if I missed something that's already available.

Any pointers on how to figure out what these guns are worth would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Depending on when his guns were made before 1960 or after. After around 1960 Model 21's were only made in premium grades. The .410 and 28 ga models command a premium in both manufacturing eras. In top shape 25,000 -50,000 or more depending on what model they are. Also some 21's were made in their custom shop after 1960. If he has a Grand American 1 of 8 set (12, 20, and 28 ga and .410) you're looking at some really serious dollars. You need to involve a serious appraiser to advise you on the value of these shotguns.

puma guy wrote: Depending on when his guns were made before 1960 or after. After around 1960 Model 21's were only made in premium grades. The .410 and 28 ga models command a premium in both manufacturing eras. In top shape 25,000 -50,000 or more depending on what model they are. Also some 21's were made in their custom shop after 1960. If he has a Grand American 1 of 8 set (12, 20, and 28 ga and .410) you're looking at some really serious dollars. You need to involve a serious appraiser to advise you on the value of these shotguns.

Thank you, Puma guy. I don't think his guns are Grand American's. The research I've done suggest those have the gold inlaid dog on the receiver, but I only know what I read. My dad tells me his guns have no gold inlay, dog or otherwise. I don't know when they were built, either. I think they are post-1960. Can I use the serial number to figure that out? Some stuff I've read say I can, some say I can't.

Once we figure out what he's got, we'll find a serious appraiser. He paid a lot of money for these guns -- about $20K I think. My brothers are going to his place to have a look this weekend. I'll post back if I get any more information that might be useful.

FrogFan wrote:

puma guy wrote: Depending on when his guns were made before 1960 or after. After around 1960 Model 21's were only made in premium grades. The .410 and 28 ga models command a premium in both manufacturing eras. In top shape 25,000 -50,000 or more depending on what model they are. Also some 21's were made in their custom shop after 1960. If he has a Grand American 1 of 8 set (12, 20, and 28 ga and .410) you're looking at some really serious dollars. You need to involve a serious appraiser to advise you on the value of these shotguns.

Thank you, Puma guy. I don't think his guns are Grand American's. The research I've done suggest those have the gold inlaid dog on the receiver, but I only know what I read. My dad tells me his guns have no gold inlay, dog or otherwise. I don't know when they were built, either. I think they are post-1960. Can I use the serial number to figure that out? Some stuff I've read say I can, some say I can't.

Once we figure out what he's got, we'll find a serious appraiser. He paid a lot of money for these guns -- about $20K I think. My brothers are going to his place to have a look this weekend. I'll post back if I get any more information that might be useful.

The lowest grade after 1960 was Pigeon Grade. I don't know what level of engraving and inlays they had. Dating by serial number is hit or miss for Winchester guns. Winchester had a fire among other events that destroyed or lost a lot of information regarding serial numbers. The Cody Museum is a good source. Here's a link that may help. I'd like to see photos if you can get any.
http://bluepike.tripod.com/Model21/tabl ... umDate.htm

puma guy wrote: The lowest grade after 1960 was Pigeon Grade. I don't know what level of engraving and inlays they had. Dating by serial number is hit or miss for Winchester guns. Winchester had a fire among other events that destroyed or lost a lot of information regarding serial numbers. The Cody Museum is a good source. Here's a link that may help. I'd like to see photos if you can get any.
http://bluepike.tripod.com/Model21/tabl ... umDate.htm

Thank you again. I appreciate your assistance. I've asked my brothers to take some pictures this weekend, but I don't know how much I trust their photography skills!

I assume the focus should be on the engraving, wood, and perhaps the model; e.g., Pigeon, and serial numbers. I know for sure one of the guns is a .410.

I will probably end up headed that way myself, and when I do, I'll take some pictures too.

Well, my brothers visited my dad today and had a look at the shotguns. First, they are model 23, not 21. I'm not sure how to edit the title of this thread to reflect that.

He has one each of 12, 20, 28, and .410 gauge, "Golden Quail, 1 of 500" edition. Indications are the guns are in "like new, unfired" condition except the .410. Athough it has not been fired, there is a blemish on the left barrel, near the muzzle, as if the barrel had rubbed against something at some point. There is no rust. I'll post a picture if I can figure out how to do it if there is interest here. The guns have been sitting in my dad's safe, not rubbing into anything, for about 20 years.

I understand that these are not nearly as valuable as the model 21, but they may be worth up to $4K-$5K -- about what my dad paid for them 20 years ago. We are seeking a competent appraiser in the Will County area, where my dad lives.

Thanks for the assistance.

FrogFan wrote:Well, my brothers visited my dad today and had a look at the shotguns. First, they are model 23, not 21. I'm not sure how to edit the title of this thread to reflect that.

He has one each of 12, 20, 28, and .410 gauge, "Golden Quail, 1 of 500" edition. Indications are the guns are in "like new, unfired" condition except the .410. Athough it has not been fired, there is a blemish on the left barrel, near the muzzle, as if the barrel had rubbed against something at some point. There is no rust. I'll post a picture if I can figure out how to do it if there is interest here. The guns have been sitting in my dad's safe, not rubbing into anything, for about 20 years.

I understand that these are not nearly as valuable as the model 21, but they may be worth up to $4K-$5K -- about what my dad paid for them 20 years ago. We are seeking a competent appraiser in the Will County area, where my dad lives.

Thanks for the assistance.

I failed your Photo Test post. I thought is was a 20 ga.

puma guy wrote: I failed your Photo Test post. I thought is was a 20 ga.

If anyone failed that test, I did. It took me an hour to figure out how to get that picture from the Textra app in my phone over to this site.

As I said over there, I'll post a few more pictures of the guns over here when I get them, just in case anyone is interested in seeing them.

OK. Here are four pictures of one of the guns. I don't know which one this is, but I understand they're almost identical. All except the .410 are in like new, unfired condition, but a competent appraiser needs to say that, not just me.






Finally, for completeness, here is a picture of the muzzle end of the barrel of the .410 (this is the picture I posted as my photo test)



I appreciate any feedback!

FrogFan wrote:

puma guy wrote: I failed your Photo Test post. I thought is was a 20 ga.

If anyone failed that test, I did. It took me an hour to figure out how to get that picture from the Textra app in my phone over to this site.

As I said over there, I'll post a few more pictures of the guns over here when I get them, just in case anyone is interested in seeing them.

Looking forward to the pics. Here's a little info from my 2009 Blue Book. Coin finished receivers, straight English stocks. Only 500 of each gauge were manufactured, beginning in 1984 with the 20ga, then 28 ga in 1985, 12ga in 1986 and .410 in in 1987 and then discontinued. Last MSRP was $1950. 100% grading value for the two small frame (.410 and 28 ga) $4350, 20ga $3100, and the 12ga $2775. I doubt the .410 is less than 80% (probably much higher) but here are the valuation listings in 2009.
95% 90% 80% 70% 60%
.410 $3650 $3300 $2900 $2450 $2100

Interestingly the mono block receivers are marked IC/M (improved cylinder/ modified). but the barrels are marked Q1/Q2, apparently for Quail 1 and 2.
Edit: I was typing as your were posting photos.

puma guy wrote:
Looking forward to the pics. Here's a little info from my 2009 Blue Book. Coin finished receivers, straight English stocks. Only 500 of each gauge were manufactured, beginning in 1984 with the 20ga, then 28 ga in 1985, 12ga in 1986 and .410 in in 1987 and then discontinued. Last MSRP was $1950. 100% grading value for the two small frame (.410 and 28 ga) $4350, 20ga $3100, and the 12ga $2775. I doubt the .410 is less than 80% (probably much higher) but here are the valuation listings in 2009.
95% 90% 80% 70% 60%
.410 $3650 $3300 $2900 $2450 $2100

Interestingly the mono block receivers are marked IC/M (improved cylinder/ modified). but the barrels are marked Q1/Q2, apparently for Quail 1 and 2.
Edit: I was typing as your were posting photos.

Thank you for the information! If you see anything interesting in the pictures or think other, maybe better, pictures focused elsewhere on the guns would be helpful, please let me know.

FrogFan wrote:Well, my brothers visited my dad today and had a look at the shotguns. First, they are model 23, not 21. I'm not sure how to edit the title of this thread to reflect that.

He has one each of 12, 20, 28, and .410 gauge, "Golden Quail, 1 of 500" edition. Indications are the guns are in "like new, unfired" condition except the .410. Athough it has not been fired, there is a blemish on the left barrel, near the muzzle, as if the barrel had rubbed against something at some point. There is no rust. I'll post a picture if I can figure out how to do it if there is interest here. The guns have been sitting in my dad's safe, not rubbing into anything, for about 20 years.

I understand that these are not nearly as valuable as the model 21, but they may be worth up to $4K-$5K -- about what my dad paid for them 20 years ago. We are seeking a competent appraiser in the Will County area, where my dad lives.

Thanks for the assistance.

I would think they are worth considerably more than the $4-5k range. The last Golden Quail I saw was a 20 gauge, back in the late 80's, at a gun show I was set up at in Ft. Worth. At that time it was valued at $850--I wish I'd bought it now, but at the time I already had an engraved Ithaca/SKB 20 gauge side by side bored skeet/skeet I used for quail hunting. For comparison purposes the going price for a nice Remington 1100 at that time was $200-250. I have .410/28/20/12 set of them in tournament grade skeet that was worth about $1600-2000 back then, and I saw a 28ga with lower grade wood sell for $1500 a few months ago. That's a quadrupling of value, and I'd think given the limited number of the GQ models produced they would have probably gone up more than that.

talltex wrote: I would think they are worth considerably more than the $4-5k range. The last Golden Quail I saw was a 20 gauge, back in the late 80's, at a gun show I was set up at in Ft. Worth. At that time it was valued at $850--I wish I'd bought it now, but at the time I already had an engraved Ithaca/SKB 20 gauge side by side bored skeet/skeet I used for quail hunting. For comparison purposes the going price for a nice Remington 1100 at that time was $200-250. I have .410/28/20/12 set of them in tournament grade skeet that was worth about $1600-2000 back then, and I saw a 28ga with lower grade wood sell for $1500 a few months ago. That's a quadrupling of value, and I'd think given the limited number of the GQ models produced they would have probably gone up more than that.

Great information! Thank you!

We've found a dealer in Will county willing to do an appraisal. I'll post up what he tells us.

By the way, my dad has a safe full of guns he's going to want to sell because his wife wants his stuff out of the basement. There is one SXS 12 gauge that was my grandfather's. It's in poor shape, I think, but it's old. I'll post pictures in another thread to see if anyone can identify it.