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Looks like there were some updates to the FBI Handgun Qualification in 2019:

Shooting the New 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification

Greg Ellifritz: The New FBI Qualification Course

This is the previous course of fire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5n1i5SP4Is

2014 Pistol Qual Course PDF

I had tried it out using a reduced target: FREE 2.5 times reduced QIT-99 Target

Honestly I thought the qualification was pretty easy to score "instructor". I do like the draws from concealment, but the time and accuracy requirements were not hard. Movement was only at 25 yards.

Greg Ellifritz says its a decent benchmark of competency and an evaluation to help identify areas where you may need further practice. I agree with him.

Anyone else try this? What did you think?

Are you required to use that stance?

Ruark wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:55 am Are you required to use that stance?

No.

Sharp shooter should not have a problem, If you Qualified with FBI before, it should be standard fare.
I scored 90% or so the last time, I did it. On a bad day, I would score about 80%

Do not be afraid. Go shoot.

I shot both the old and the new at KR Training using my S&W M&P M2.0 9mm 5inch in a Safariland 7TS ALS. The most challenging was, indeed, the single-handed shooting. Passed both times with 90+. On the new test, I had spent more time training for 20 and 25 yard shots. Passed with 98.

While its nice to be able to say I've passed the FBI qualification and the Austin PD qualification, I find that KR Training's "Three Seconds or Less" is closer to what we, as civilians, might encounter. https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Informa ... OrLess.htm

Karl Rehn and John Daub have done extensive research and study in why folks don't train, how to develop effective training, and minimum competency. They have coauthored a book on the subject.

Beyond the One Percent https://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the- ... nt-part-1/

Minimum Competency https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/minimu ... ve-pistol/

Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/

oljames3 wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:35 am
While its nice to be able to say I've passed the FBI qualification and the Austin PD qualification, I find that KR Training's "Three Seconds or Less" is closer to what we, as civilians, might encounter. https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Informa ... OrLess.htm

Agree! Passing the FBI qualification is nice, but KR's Three Seconds or Less drill is necessary... and not just for civilians.

I tried out the 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification. The timing on the 25 yard shooting was noticeably tighter, but honestly I didn't feel it was much more difficult. Fewer rounds are fired at 15 and 25 yards. I went from 93 to 94% on the new qual. I may try it once more to see if I can get a perfect score.

It had been about a year since I ran the FBI Handgun qual. Its a good yardstick for competency with fundamental concealed carry skills and the qualification required by our system for students to earn their Yellow belt. Clean run until the 15 and 25 yard stages (1 outside on each), but still hit instructor standard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BduWE ... b_imp_woyt

Williams says the each student puts about 4,000 rounds through the 9mm Glock during training. The Remington 870P gets anywhere from 120-150 shells cycled and the Colt pattern carbine (with training guns sporting a snazzy yellow M4 butt while another gun has a Magpul CTR) runs about 620 to establish proficiency.

Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.

Paladin wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am

Williams says the each student puts about 4,000 rounds through the 9mm Glock during training. The Remington 870P gets anywhere from 120-150 shells cycled and the Colt pattern carbine (with training guns sporting a snazzy yellow M4 butt while another gun has a Magpul CTR) runs about 620 to establish proficiency.

Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.

I watched the video in part to get a clarification on whether this represented qualification evolutions or actual instruction. Seems to be the latter. Back in the day when ammo was readily available and reasonably priced, I took classes where 1,000 rounds of pistol and 500 rounds of carbine ammo were expended in a two-day weekend, and several of the hours during the weekend were lecture and non-live-fire instruction. I did a little searching for this, and: "To demonstrate proficiency, trainees must successfully qualify with both the pistol and carbine, and participate in live-fire familiarization with the shotgun. The present firearms curriculum is comprised of 28 sessions totaling 110 hours of instruction, and includes approximately 5,000 rounds of ammunition."

Just doing back-of-the-napkin estimates, I'd say the training I'm familiar with amounted to about 125 rounds per hour of actual live-fire work. Figure it may have been closer to 100. If new agents are going through 5,000 rounds at Quantico, that would work out to between 40 and 50 hours of live-fire. Which, with 110 hours of instruction, I guess is pretty proportionate. Especially if the large majority of newly-minted agents are coming from previous military or law enforcement backgrounds and have some commensurate training under their belts.

At first glance, it just seemed--to me--to be a pretty minimal amount for green recruits who truly may be new to firearms.

Paladin wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:11 am Interesting that they run 4,000 rounds of pistol for training.

Oh, and a P.S. While I was searching, this USA Today article from January 2013 came up: FBI focuses firearms training on close-quarters combat

FBI focuses firearms training on close-quarters combat

"The new training protocols were formally implemented last January after a review of nearly 200 shootings involving FBI agents during a 17-year period. The analysis found that 75% of the incidents involved suspects who were within 3 yards of agents when shots were exchanged. The move represents a dramatic shift for the agency, which for more than three decades has relied on long-range marksmanship training."

Seems to reasonably explain the heavy emphasis now on handgun skills and the 15% ratio of carbine to pistol rounds fired.

A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.

troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.

If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)

Paladin wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:17 am

troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.

If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)

I have passed the new FBI test, several times, as administered by Karl Rehn and again by Tom Givens. Givens does, indeed, have the achieving of 90% or higher (instructor level) on the FBI test as one of the three requirements for successful completion of the Rangemaster Instructor Development Course, of which I am a graduate. It is more than a "sobriety test" for most of us.

To understand the difficulty of a drill or test, I suggest reading Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub.

Section 3, Drills, includes guidance in how to calculate the relative difficulty level of any handgun drill, comparisons and analysis of many well known standard courses of fire, discussion of the development of the Three Seconds or Less test and KRT-2 target, and a recommended list of 10 drills as a progression of performance level and skill development any shooter or trainer could use to define standards for every level of handgun proficiency.

https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/

oljames3 wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:34 pm

Paladin wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:17 am

troglodyte wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:06 pm A well known trainer told us in a class one time that the FBI test was little more than a sobriety test. We took it so we could say we passed it.

If that's true, why does Tom Givens make it part of his instructor qualification course? It's not a perfect test, but I would say better than a lot of them (Texas DPS qualification being one elephant in the room)

I have passed the new FBI test, several times, as administered by Karl Rehn and again by Tom Givens. Givens does, indeed, have the achieving of 90% or higher (instructor level) on the FBI test as one of the three requirements for successful completion of the Rangemaster Instructor Development Course, of which I am a graduate. It is more than a "sobriety test" for most of us.

To understand the difficulty of a drill or test, I suggest reading Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Training, by Karl Rehn and John Daub.

Section 3, Drills, includes guidance in how to calculate the relative difficulty level of any handgun drill, comparisons and analysis of many well known standard courses of fire, discussion of the development of the Three Seconds or Less test and KRT-2 target, and a recommended list of 10 drills as a progression of performance level and skill development any shooter or trainer could use to define standards for every level of handgun proficiency.

https://blog.krtraining.com/strategies- ... ning-book/

I think Karl's book is well on it's way to becoming a classic every instructor should own. Karl ranks the FBI handgun qual in the "More Challenging" category (70%+ GM). #9 of the 10 drills. In my assessment The FBI Qual's weakest point is not testing shooting from retention (inside 3 yards).