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koine2002 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:

koine2002 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:How about applying this same question to the 1st Amendment? Should we be a bit to say anything anywhere we want? Some seem to want to limit when and where I practice my. Christian faith. What about free association and gathering?

Can you only be partially for the 11st Amendment at times and in certain places or do you have to be for it "all in" anytime anywhere?

The first amendment does not say that a homeowner or a business has to allow you to exercise the freedoms of the first amendment. It says, "Congress shall make no law..." No one, not even the government, has to give anyone a platform for exercising our first and second amendment rights. Government just cannot prevent us from exercising those rights should we choose to do so. Our rights are those of a negative nature (what a government can't stop us from doing or make us do). They are not those of a positive nature (what a government must provide people with). Positive right always mean the end of negative rights. Positive rights are what has taken over western Europe and Canada.

I'm a pastor, an evangelical, and as theologically conservative as they come. I, however, do not expect that the local store has to allow me the use of their property to evangelize. If they allow other types of speech but not mine, so be it. That's their prerogative as a non-government entity. I do expect, however, the that the city not prevent me from doing so in a city park if it allows all other forms of speech. Free and voluntary association does not mean that Billy Bob's Barbecue needs to provide their space for a church meeting. However, it does mean that the government cannot prevent us from gathering or prevent Billy Bob's from allowing us to meet at their facility. The right to peaceful assembly does not mean that a shopping mall has to allow a group of protesters to stage a protest in their mall. It does, however, mean that the government cannot prohibit such protests. I see the second amendment in the same way. The moment we make the constitution, and our rights, about what we must provide for each other is the moment we have lost our liberty. I'm essentially just a consistent Libertarian.

Your argument is entirely outside the context and premise of this thread and discussion.

How about answering my question that I posed to anygun? This discussion is about all or nothi and all in or all against?

I answered the question with a lengthy explanation. No, one does not need to be "all in" (any gun anywhere) to be a second amendment supporter. I don't like the government forbidding me from possessing or carrying a weapon. However, I will fight tooth and nail for the rights of private property owners as well. "My house my rules." Taking away that right is akin to taking property without due process. The second amendment is not the only right that exists. The moment we decide an individual has to provide everyone a platform to exercise their right to bear arms (or any other right for that matter) is the moment we despise liberty.

koine2002 wrote:

mojo84 wrote:How about applying this same question to the 1st Amendment? Should we be a bit to say anything anywhere we want? Some seem to want to limit when and where I practice my. Christian faith. What about free association and gathering?

Can you only be partially for the 11st Amendment at times and in certain places or do you have to be for it "all in" anytime anywhere?

The first amendment does not say that a homeowner or a business has to allow you to exercise the freedoms of the first amendment. It says, "Congress shall make no law..." No one, not even the government, has to give anyone a platform for exercising our first and second amendment rights. Government just cannot prevent us from exercising those rights should we choose to do so. Our rights are those of a negative nature (what a government can't stop us from doing or make us do). They are not those of a positive nature (what a government must provide people with). Positive right always mean the end of negative rights. Positive rights are what has taken over western Europe and Canada.

I'm a pastor, an evangelical, and as theologically conservative as they come. I, however, do not expect that the local store has to allow me the use of their property to evangelize. If they allow other types of speech but not mine, so be it. That's their prerogative as a non-government entity. I do expect, however, the that the city not prevent me from doing so in a city park if it allows all other forms of speech. Free and voluntary association does not mean that Billy Bob's Barbecue needs to provide their space for a church meeting. However, it does mean that the government cannot prevent us from gathering or prevent Billy Bob's from allowing us to meet at their facility. The right to peaceful assembly does not mean that a shopping mall has to allow a group of protesters to stage a protest in their mall. It does, however, mean that the government cannot prohibit such protests. I see the second amendment in the same way. The moment we make the constitution, and our rights, about what we must provide for each other is the moment we have lost our liberty. I'm essentially just a consistent Libertarian.

anygunanywhere wrote:

mojo84 wrote:How about applying this same question to the 1st Amendment? Should we be a bit to say anything anywhere we want? Some seem to want to limit when and where I practice my. Christian faith. What about free association and gathering?

Can you only be partially for the 11st Amendment at times and in certain places or do you have to be for it "all in" anytime anywhere?

We have to allow tons of speech and expression that is vile and goes counter to our beliefs because of the 1st amendment. Speech and expression is no where near as "infringed" as our 2A rights. People keep brining up the "yell fire in a theater" example. It is illegal to pull your weapon and shoot into the ceiling of a theater so this example is worthless.

If or 2A freedoms were allowed as much as our 1A we would be doing really well.