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phddan wrote: Again, I aint faulting you one bit on the way you handled it. Just giving another perspective.
Dan

That’s exactly what the intent of the post was Dan, to get diverse opinions on shoot or don’t shoot, and why.

Ethically, I have no problems with the way I handled the situation and I believe legally I was covered …now technically I made several major bonehead moves and hopefully learned my lesson. My training has been modified to take into account my mistakes in hopes I don’t do them again.

But you’re spot on by posting your perspective on the question of shoot/don’t shoot.

The reason I picked this scenario is it really happened, so the discussion of whether it’s a viable scenario is mute. It also, in my opinion, showed how in our everyday life we could walk into a situation completely unaware of it until it’s too late to avoid the confrontation.

It also has the option of shoot/don’t shoot without the criminal prosecution aspects hanging over your head, so the decision to shoot or not can be made/discussed without bringing that into the argument. By that I mean until he dropped the “weapon�, I think the average citizen would allow that it was a legal shoot. Even once he dropped the weapon, his advance towards you could probably be interpreted as a threat. So it becomes more a questions of personal ethics.

Ethics to me is that big gray area between white and black, and at least for me there’s rarely a clear cut answer…if there is, it’s in the black or white area.

So I hope more folks, no matter what their view is, will take time to respond.

Jim:

You brought up a valid point about dogs, and how they would play into this scenario. At present, I have 2 (German Shepard & Border Collie). The BC is excellent on the cattle, but I suspect next to useless for home defense. The GS is a different story…he’s very protective, and while he’s under good voice command, I suspect he would have jumped the BG before I even knew he was there since once he figured I was headed to the shed, he would have gone through the door first (he’s got to be first everywhere we go!). But in this particular case, he and the BC were both in the house (good thing…the BC would have probably been helping him load my tools up ).

Another person mentioned a long gun…yep, I often carry one on the ranch and this day was no exception, except I had put it in the house, with the dogs, before I went down to the barn...yea, I know, stupid

The end of the story is very anticlimactic, no OK Corral or fight to the death for the gun…no career criminal hauled away in the back of a squad car…and no victorious battle with a group of gang-bangers…and no fat contract from a studio for the rights to the story

As this guy walked towards me, very slowly, I stepped back out the door and moved far enough to clear the doorway and give me a view to the corners of the building. I never lost sight of the BG

The BG came one step through the doorway, and I said “close enough� and he stopped...immediately…the weapon stayed pointed COM the entire time. He said something to the effect of “I don’t want any trouble, I just want to leave� at which time I responded with “Then do it�. He moved away for a few steps watching me, then turned and ran into the trees heading towards the road. I could follow his progress by sound. Then I heard a car start, and head down the road, accelerating rapidly. Once I heard the car move, I lowered the pistol and the whole thing was over.

After going back to the house to get the rifle and the German Shepard, I checked the premise, inventoried my tools (nothing missing), turned off the light, locked the door, and went inside to make supper.

Now I have to state here that I wasn’t thinking about any legal ramifications such as law suits, so that had nothing to due with staying my hand. The truth of the matter is I just never felt the guy needed to be shot, and that’s the only reason I didn’t pull the trigger.

And when I say needed to be shot, I mean “needed�…it’s got nothing to do with the legal definition of right to use deadly force, or did I have a right to send a moral message about my belongings, or a belief that life is sacred…he just never represented a threat that I felt needed me to pull the trigger.

This kid was just scared having to stare at my pistol. Nothing in his actions led me to believe he wanted to do anything except survive the next few seconds and then leave.

His advance towards me after he dropped the “weapon� appeared to be more his moving towards the door, which I felt to him meant escape, then it was an attempt to get a better tactical position from which to attack me.

As for keeping him there, I had discounted that immediately. I’ve had problems taking folks in custody and that was with other guys around to support…by myself just didn’t make good sense to me. Ask him to leave his wallet…possibly…and in my mind I had thought about that many times before the incident. But in the middle of it, the truth is it just didn’t cross my mind.

The whole thing was one judgement call after another, and the only thing I can say in my defense is we both ended up living through it.

During a previous thread, the discussion turned to protecting your property by the use of deadly force. In that particular thread, the discussion was about some tools taken from a shed, not attached to the owner’s house, and it was at night.

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... sc&start=0

Several folks brought up the point that the discussion was more about should you shoot, not were you legally covered if you shoot.

Some folks said it was ok to shoot since they were stealing your stuff, and the implications were it didn’t really matter what the “value� of the stuff was…you should shoot to send a message to all BG that theft would not be tolerated. This was one end of the spectrum.

The other end felt that no material possessions were worth taking a human life over, no matter how much they cost, or how dependent your livelihood was on them.

A lot of people fell in-between the “Shoot them over a shovel because a line has to be drawn� and “give them the keys to the car because all life is sacred� groups. Please note I am not passing judgment on either side, only stating what I felt the two ends to the continuum were…

To help get a better feel for where folks stand, I’m putting forward the following scenario. It’s based on an actual incident that happened to me a few years ago…

If you are going to respond, please stay within the scenario as posted. If you need clarification on an aspect, ask…I’m trying to keep this as close as possible to the real occurrence. That tends to cut down on the “but it wouldn’t happen that way� discussions since it did happen.

Background information:

You run a small cattle operation with a very small profit margin…when there are profits. You have a 3 stall machine building (steel with 3 car doors, and one regular door…no windows…think 3 stall garage) that’s about 100 ft from your house. Your tools are very important to the ranch operation, and they cost a fair amount of money when compared to your profit margin. You’ve been ripped off once before, and you know the insurance route is a pain, and there’s the deductible to deal with.

It’s dark out (sunset was several hours before) and you are returning to the house from the barn. The barn is ~400 yards away and not really visible from the machine building.

You are on foot, and are carrying your normal carry weapon. In this case let’s assume no long guns, no shotguns, and no 81mm mortars or M-79’s.

As you round the house, you notice the lights are on in the machine shed, which happens periodically since the family thinks electricity is free (and you wonder why your profit margin is so low)…


Enter the scenario:

-You are on the side of the building facing the garage car doors. The regular door entrance is on the side of the building, and you can not see it from where you stand, but you do see the lights are on since the building is a standard steel building, so light spills out from multiple places…

a. Call 911 and wait 45-60 min for the Sheriff to arrive (scenario stops)
b. Head towards the building to turn the lights off (what I did)
c. Call in an air strike, preferably with Napalm and an AC-135 for backup since this is clearly a terrorist incident.

-As you round the corner, you see the door is open, but your family has been known to leave the door open…

a. Call 911 (scenario stops)
b. Draw your weapon and “pie� the door (the tactical condition yellow approach)
c. Walk to the door to close it and turn the lights out (what I did)
d. The air-strike didn’t work, time for the AC-135 to work out
e. Other

-As you make it to the door (either walking or “pie’ing) you see a 20 something male with his hands in your Craftsman chest tool box. He’s rather normal looking build wise (not a razor thin crack-head look nor a body builder). He sees you essentially the same time as you see him. If you “pied� the door, let’s assume he has not seen the weapon yet. The only way this guy can get out is through the door you are standing in. He picks up a ~2ft screw driver and turns towards you. At that moment, he looks more like a scared rabbit then a hardened predator.
He is ~15-20 ft away from you, but your shed is not exactly ready for a white glove inspection, so there’s several things between you and him…one of which is a CJ7 Jeep, so it’s not absolutely clear the coveted “21ft rule� applies in this case. Other then to turn towards you with the screw driver, he has not made any movements or said anything…

a. Put two in the chest and one in the head with additional rounds as required until he’s down and disarmed (shooting to stop, not to kill of course)
b. Back out of the door and get clear of the garage so you can call 911. If your weapon is holstered, you leave it there. If you pied the door, then you re-holstered as you retreated.
c. Back out of the door to call 911. Draw your weapon if you didn’t pie the door.
d. Back out and draw your weapon. Forget about 911, you can ambush the BG as he comes through the door. No need to worry about the 21ft rule since you have increased the distance considerably and are maybe behind cover/concealment.
e. Keep your weapon out of sight and try to de-escalate the situation (remember he hasn’t seen your weapon yet). Drawing to low ready where he can’t see it is part of this option since the Jeep is blocking some of his vision, although it’s questionable he wouldn’t notice the draw
f. Allow him to see the weapon, but don’t point it directly at him
g. Allow him to see the weapon by aiming COM or head…whichever you’re more comfortable with (what I did)
h. Other

Now there are a plethora of directions the scenario could take at this juncture based on the answers listed above. Option "a" ends the scenario.
b, c, & d address retreating while "e" is standing your ground, but not escalating. f & g are escalations with "g" clearly a threat of deadly force.

Now in the actual incident, calling 911 was not an option…the cell phone coverage is so poor on my ranch, I don’t bother to carry my cell, so for the rest of the scenario, let’s assume you do not have phone coverage (which I absolutely don’t around my machine building)

If you retreated or stood your ground, let’s assume there are two likely responses, one the guy drops the screwdriver (what actually happened), and one he doesn’t.

-He retains the screwdriver, but doesn’t move. After several verbal commands to drop it, it’s clear he’s not going to…but he still hasn’t moved

a. Shoot him
b. Don’t shoot and stand your ground
c. Don’t shoot and advance
d. Don’t shoot and retreat
e. other

-Same as above, except he moves towards you and the door…the scenario options are the same (a-d)

-Drops the screwdriver but moves towards you and the door (what actually happened)…your options stay the same