Search found 4 matches

by Right2Carry
Sat May 15, 2010 8:48 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 22668

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

nitrogen wrote:Coming a little late to this, but heck, here goes.

Personally, I doubt i'd open carry.

Open carry IS important. Let me explain why:
Let's look at the issue from the perspective of the 1st amendment instead of the 2nd. I'm going to make a simple argument, full of logical fallacies and holes, but please follow me to the end.

Imagine if it was perfectly legal to be a Christian, you just couldn't wear artifacts of Christianity openly, or speak about it openly. "as we all know, Ideas are dangerous, and we wouldn't want the wrong ones openly discussed where our children could have access to them."

In effect, THIS is why open carry is important. It's the gun owners equivalent of the gays at pride parades saying, "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."

Right now, with the status quo, we can be 2nd amendment supporters, but we have to keep it to ourselves in public. Nobody knows (or should know) that we're carrying, so it gets to be an out of sight, out of mind issue for the public.

For practical reasons, that's great; because it allows the "sheeple" to stay ignorant, but allows us the maximum use of our rights today.

This is where I think a lot of OC advocates and people like Charles diverge, and start talking AT each other instead of to. Charles, and the TSRA is being pragmatic about our rights. They want the maximum use of what we can get with as few restrictions, and as few repercussions as possible from the "sheeple" This isn't a bad thing, in fact, it works up to a point. Like in business, if you never take risks, you never get rewards.

People in the OC movement (at least me) see fighting for OC as our version of "Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed" or "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." Bringing the issue out into the open, and forcing more people to talk and discuss it is very risky, but can have great rewards, too.

I think Charles and the TSRA are adverse to this risk. They see what we have now as "good enough" and I think many of the members of the TSRA would agree. I don't know Charles all that well, but from his posts on here, he strikes me as your normal conservative Conservative. This kind of position is a very conservative one, and one I'd expect.

I'm more of a liberal/progressive type. I like pushing the envelope, and I think many of the open carry advocates have some liberal tendencies, even if their beliefs fall into the typically "conservative" range. They want to push the envelope, too. Pushing the envelope causes change and progression. Many conservatives I know are more of a "regressive" (meaning, "things were better back then, we should go back to that") kind of thinking.

I don't see the TSRA's position as "bad" or "wrong" like many OC advocates seem to. I think they are being pragmatic and conservative. I also don't see the OC advocates as wrong, either.
Part of the problem is that political discourse in this country is so poor, that people are quick to demonize and lambaste people they do not agree with. This is a great example of that, I think.

Stated very well. :tiphat:
by Right2Carry
Fri May 14, 2010 1:38 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 22668

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

Keith B wrote:
Right2Carry wrote:I don't understand how Oklahoma was able to get the parking lot bill passed and yet Texas has failed repeatedly to get this done. Now Oklahoma is going to have OC and Texas will still be trying to get Campus Carry and the Employee parking lot bills passed.

I am a native Texan but if this keeps up I just might have to consider moving to Oklahoma so I can exercise my God given 2nd ammendment rights to the fullest extent possible.

Texas should be leading the way, instead of trying to follow in the footsteps of Oklahoma.
I believe the parking lot bill would have passed last year had it made it to the floor. Chubbing by the Democrats last year caused a lot of bills to never be read or voted on. :mad5
And what prevents that same tactic from happening again this year?
by Right2Carry
Fri May 14, 2010 10:40 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 22668

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

I don't understand how Oklahoma was able to get the parking lot bill passed and yet Texas has failed repeatedly to get this done. Now Oklahoma is going to have OC and Texas will still be trying to get Campus Carry and the Employee parking lot bills passed.

I am a native Texan but if this keeps up I just might have to consider moving to Oklahoma so I can exercise my God given 2nd ammendment rights to the fullest extent possible.

Texas should be leading the way, instead of trying to follow in the footsteps of Oklahoma.
by Right2Carry
Fri May 14, 2010 10:27 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 session
Replies: 127
Views: 22668

Re: OK passes open carry & TSRA planning for Texas '11 sessi

Keith B wrote:
KC5AV wrote:They may have jumped the gun on the map, but a bill was recently sent to the TN governor that would allow restaurant carry with a prohibition against any consumption while carrying. I haven't heard whether the bill has been, or is likely to be signed.
Bills are still going through the house and senate, so still off-limits. Even their Tennessee page outlining the gun laws says they are 'researching' off-limits locations. I am not sure how up-to-date their data even is across the board; apparently not very. :waiting:
It was legal to carry in a Tennesse restaraunt until some judge made a ill informed decision. The bills currently in work are to fix what the judge ruled was unconstitutional.

Judge shoots down Tennessee's guns-in-bars law as unconstitutional
After ruling, lawyers disagree whether it's effective immediately


NASHVILLE -- A Nashville judge ruled Friday that Tennessee's new law allowing handgun-carry permit holders to go armed into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol was unconstitutionally vague.

But because Chancellor Claudia Bonnyman likely won't file her written order until at least Monday, lawyers disagreed on whether the 257,000 Tennessee gun-permit holders -- and those from other states whose permits are legally recognized in Tennessee -- are violating the law if they carry guns this weekend into places serving alcohol that have not opted to ban guns.

State Atty. Gen. Robert Cooper's office, which defended the statute in court, declined to provide firm guidance to permit holders or restaurants on when the ruling is effective -- but indicated through spokeswoman Sharon Curtis-Flair that it would not be enforced at least until the written order is filed.

But Nashville lawyer David Randolph Smith, who represented Nashville restaurant owners and citizens opposed to the law, said he believes the judge's verbal ruling was effective immediately.

"She ruled from the bench that it was unconstitutional and she didn't stay it. It is no longer a law. If somebody out there tonight walks into a bar with a handgun, they would be violating the law because the law has been ruled unconstitutional. As a practical matter though, I don't think anyone will enforce it until she issues the written order," Smith said.

The "guns in bars" issue was one of the hardest-fought battles in the legislature this year, after years of failure by gun advocates.

Tennessee previously banned guns in all places where alcohol is sold, but the bill attempted to carve out an exception for gun-carry permit holders as long as they are not consuming alcohol. It also allowed restaurant owners to maintain gun bans in their businesses by posting signs at the entrance.

Gov. Phil Bredesen vetoed the bill, but lawmakers overrode the veto.

The bill's tortured wording, which attempts to differentiate between "bars" and restaurants even though Tennessee law does not recognize bars, left it open to the challenge by opponents that it is too vague to clearly put permit holders on notice about which establishments are legal or not.

Smith's co-counsel, David Raybin, argued in a one-hour hearing Friday that it would be difficult for patrons to know which restaurants met the definition.

But State Asst. Atty. Gen. Lyndsay Fuller Sanders said customers with permits "can just ask."

The ruling, assuming it stands, sets up another extended battle in the next legislature, which convenes in January.

State Rep. Curry Todd, R-Collierville, vowed Friday to sponsor the bill again and Bredesen said he could veto it again if a new bill doesn't address his concerns about safety.

"I thought the statute was very clear. I just think the judge was looking for something to make it unconstitutional," Todd said. "We patterned it after other states' laws and I think she's done a disservice to gun-permit holders of Tennessee. I do hope the state attorney general, who I will talk with next week, will appeal this ruling.

"And if in fact it still remains unconstitutionally vague as she ruled, then I will come back with tenacity next session to pass the bill again. I hope that the folks who have handgun permits rise up and get on the bandwagon again if this thing has to go back before the legislature."

Todd did say, however, that permit holders should obey the judge's ruling.

Senate Democratic Minority Leader Jim Kyle of Memphis predicted another fight in the legislature.

"I'm happy that common sense as well as the rule of law has won the day. I have always believed in the Second Amendment and will continue to fight to protect it, but I fought against guns in bars because alcohol and firearms do not mix," Kyle said.

Greater Memphis reacts

Mike Miller, president of the Memphis Restaurant Association, said he and others have tried to clarify the "guns in bars" bill since it became law July 14.

"It was poorly written," said Miller, owner of Patrick's Steaks and Spirits. "If it's going to be the law, it needs to be concise about how we're to apply the law."

Larkin Grisanti, who operates Frank Grisanti's Restaurant in East Memphis, said he didn't like having to worry about the safety of customers and employees.

"We know that there are people who have the right to carry and have the proper training. But we're in an environment where we serve alcohol," he said. "It could be a big liability."

Danny Sumrall, owner of The Half Shell, said the chancellor's decision even though it could be appealed or the law rewritten was a victory for restaurant owners.

"At least it makes a statement," he added. "To me, guns and restaurants have never mixed. A restaurant is just not a good environment for guns."

-- Ryan Poe

Contact Nashville Bureau chief Richard Locker at (615) 255-4923.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/20 ... itutional/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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