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ShootDontTalk wrote:I find it fascinating that some here advocate just glibly complying with what is clearly an unconstitutional act (violating the 5th and 6th Amendments) by complying with a demand to pay a fine from a red light camera.

Clearly to who, you? The US 7th circuit court of appeals issued a ruling a few years ago and found it all quite legal. I'm not sure if you know how the courts work, but that's just under the US supreme Court where most case law is established.

gringo pistolero wrote:

Chris wrote:I can tell you with certainty though, that adding yellow time does virtually nothing to stop red light running. I've done the real live actual studies on intersections doing just that.

If you're saying there's no significant difference between a 4 second yellow and a 6 second yellow on a city street, I can believe that. At some point you hit diminishing returns. On the other hand, the limit of human reaction time and the laws of physics make it hard to believe there's no difference in red light running between a 4 second and a 2 second yellow light.

They all use the MUTCD and some other manual, but I don't remember what it's called... I'm no engineer. It takes into account a variety of factors. Say you have an Audi with a fresh brake job, then a worn out garbage truck. They have to set the timing to account for a whole host of vehicles and vehicle conditions. I was an accident investigator, and when you do speed calculations, most people can stop faster than they think. The problem is people spend a second or two debating whether they can make the light or not.

If there is ever a timing issue, regardless of whether or not a camera is present, you can always call and have the city or state responsible for it check it out. One city installed cameras and used an outsourced engineering company to set the timing. They screwed up and, I forget the specifics now, but the light timing went into default mode, which was maybe a half to a second quicker than it should have been. It was made into a big deal because a camera was on it. It was a mistake that shouldn't have happened, but it looked bad.

You can always appeal those red light tickets. I know some of the hearing officers, and most of then are very fair. I saw the hearing officer I had dismiss a lot of violations that the officers issued, because he thought it was a little cheesy. I dismissed a few myself because I guess the officers made a mistake and let one through that shouldn't have. It's all about integrity, but I saw politics get in the way quite a bit.

MechAg94 wrote:

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've read this entire thread, and still don't understand why that thing ticketed me for a right-hand turn when I wasn't speeding and it turned yellow on me just before I entered the turn, if the thing was set up as it has been described. If I had been mashing the pedal and blazed straight through an intersection and ran a red light, that would have been my fault (and I assure you I would have paid if that were the case). But it simply wasn't the case. I'm still irritated, and I'm also irritated by the "customer service" that I encountered.

Maybe because it doesn't work as advertised?

My problem with all the claims of the good the cameras do is that all those things can be fixed with better light timing among other things. However, that stuff cost money to do. Red light cameras are supposed to generate money.

Yellow light timing has very little to do with someone's decision to run a red light. You can roughly figure a second for every 10 miles per hour. I had an intersection with a four and a half second yellow and people ran the ever loving crap out of it. Our engineers would extend the timing before a light was even considered. It was a huge ordeal to get a camera setup. I could do it, it just took a lot of effort. The engineering problem is when you go through many towns and hit all green lights on the main thoroughfares, it's because of some highly complicated signal timing. You add a half a second of yellow, you've got to steal it from somewhere.

I can tell you with certainty though, that adding yellow time does virtually nothing to stop red light running. I've done the real live actual studies on intersections doing just that.

Having said that, I can't say it's not about money. For people like me and the engineers who are tasked with traffic, they don't want fatalities or serious accidents on roads they control. For city managers and directors I wish I could say the same.

Jumping Frog wrote: I believe the red light infraction happens when you ENTER the intersection and it is red. If you are past the intersection white stop line so that you are partially or fully in the intersection before the light turns red, then you lawfully exit and clear the intersection.

I'll tell you exactly how it works, from the red light camera, to writing my fair share of tickets. You know how when you pull up to an intersection, they used to have the old loop detectors in the ground? Well, the new technology now is that camera you see pointing at you on the light pole. It is a camera with a digital box drawn over each lane. When the pixels change, it signals the camera that a car is present, and to change the light. The red light cameras work the same way. Instead of one box, they draw two boxes for each lane. The cameras can only get up to four lanes, though, so if it's a five lane road, you get to pick the one you can't monitor. For each lane is two boxes. The red light camera uses the same type of signal camera. You draw two boxes for each lane immediately prior to the stop lines, then you set a speed for each lane. For lanes where you must stop and remain stopped. These are usually set at 1-2 mph. The software will calculate your vehicle's speed as it breaks the two boxes. If your speed is calculated to be above that threshold, it triggers the camera. For areas where you can make a right turn, these are usually set with speeds of 3-5 mph. If you cross the boxes going more than the allotted speed, the camera trips. I often heard the argument that someone made a right turn because most of their slowest speed was well into the intersection, so they felt like they made a close enough stop. When they entered the intersection and broke the threshold speed, they were moving much faster. If you are in an intersection, beyond the stopping point, waiting on a clear path to turn left, you can't be captured by the camera because you have already crossed the two boxes. I was in a meeting with all the cheeses from DFW, and we tried to come up with a standard definition of a stop. Some cities were using the stop line, others were using the curb line. Where I worked, we decided to use the stop line to avoid confusion. Dallas used the prolongation of the curb, which would technically get you more violations, because someone who legally couldn't be issued a ticket for running a red light under state law, could be issued a camera ticket under city ordinance. So in essence, they'd crossed the stop line, being in the intersection after the light turned red, but since they hadn't passed the curb line, the city ordinance hadn't considered them 'in the intersection' yet. All the raw data went to the vendor where they had clerks processing each capture. They view the video and the images, and if they feel it is a good violation, they put it in a review queue for the agency to review. We used the police traffic division. If an officer rejected a violation, it went to a supervisor who had to approve the rejection. I will tell you, the officers varied on their discretion with those just as much as they did on the street. Some issued violations that I wouldn't have even issued.

As far as it goes on the street, if you break the stop line of an intersection and continue through on a red light, you got a ticket. If you pulled way out into the intersection, but stopped well past the line, it was a ticket for failing to stop at the proper place. If you saw my patrol car and skidded to a stop at the last minute, but backed up safely to the proper line, you got applauded for your efforts.

I've met the engineer who got Dallas' program running. She doesn't care anything about the red light cameras. She sets the timing based on MUTCD. They put one up that had no crashes, but the police wanted it because they wrote for tons of violations there. She had mixed emotions about that one. She genuinely wants to see crashes go down.

I was an administrator over a red light camera system for a large city in DFW, and know most of the people who run these things. I also know some of the vendors. The vendors are pretty cut throat with each other, but they operate legitimately. Every violation that goes out has someone review it that works for the issuing agency. Most of them use police officers to review and issue. Where I worked, we used the traffic division of the PD to review them. We had some that were losing money, and others that were making tons of money, but the intersections that got them had some serious wrecks. I had several videos of rollover accidents in the camera intersections from people running lights. I'll have to see if I can find one of the photos from a red light ticket. It caught this ridiculous crash in mid impact.

If you don't pay them, you will likely not see any repercussions, but I know when I left I was working with the city attorney to file suit against people with multiple violations. I was also getting things finalized to have registration holds placed.