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govnor wrote:I heard on the news story (I listen to 1080am and 820am all day) that they DID rob the customers for their wallets. I know I didn't hear this wrong, but maybe they got the story wrong. Or this was another incident. The one I heard about was on I-35 in Fort Worth.

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They took cash, but not wallets.

AEA wrote:3 tours in Vietnam and VERY Experienced.

That is why I said "I am sorry to say". It would have been done automatically without any other thought considered.

Nothing personal taken.

I appreciate your service to our great country. Especially during a time when you troops were not treated as you shuold have been. You have my admiration and respect.

What do you do these days?

AEA wrote:Having read all the posts in this thread I have my comment......

Therefore, I am sorry to say, that had I been in your friend's shoes, I would have engaged the moment the shot was fired.

Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot. And since I carry a .45 and 2 spare mags, I would not have felt under gunned.

Unless you have training and experience under fire, I find that unlikely. That is not a criticism of you either. People tend to react with shock and need time to process what is happening and formulate a plan before responding, unless those brain pathways have already been established by training and experience.

TX Rancher wrote:

AEA wrote: Hopefully everyone would have already been down after that first shot.

My experience has been many non-professionals tend to freeze in place and look towards the disturbance instead of hitting the dirt or getting out of the way. It passes quickly, but not quickly enough…

I would not recommend assuming the non-combatants will immediately get out of the way or hit the dirt.

Exactly

TXI:

Did your friend mention what the folks in the store did?

Froze. Thats what I expect too.

sebis wrote:Couple of points I would like to make:

1. He made a good choice given the outcome BUT I don't think he could have known that the robbery wasn't going to turn violent. In the contrary, there was already a shot fired, AD or not. One would have a good reason to believe that it will turn violent on moment's notice with the perps starting shooting without warning. If you follow the news, there are plenty of cases when it did.

You can never "know" except for one thing....had he engaged them, it WOULD have turned violent. The robbers already had the upper hand, but they did not know there was a SWAT cop there. He was prepared for quick and lethal action.

Remember what he was armed with.

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Actually it tends to be on the shoulders of the BGs that decided to rob the place and open fire. In places like Florida, if anyone dies during the robbery (like say one robber gets killed by a CHL), then the surviving BGs get charged with murder.

No actually Paladin, it would have rested squarely on HIS shoulders.

And your comment about Florida, while I don't know squat about Florida law, sounds wrong to me. Texas has a law called "causation", but would not apply to a CHLer defending himself against a bad guy, and the bad guys accomplice getting charged in the death of the first bad guy.

While I understand causation, I usually do a poor job of trying to explain it. Perhaps Charles could shed some light?

Paladin wrote:The walls in the Waffle House tend to be pretty thin, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in a gunfight with only a Kel-tec .380...

So I can see why he did what he did.

But I will say that he had plenty of legal justification to act, and I'm not sure I'd wait till they started shooting people or pointing a gun at me or my family to act.

Of course every situation is different, but everybody should be aware that there is a point where it becomes too late to act.

Suarez's experience with force-on-force suggests that sometime during the initial takeover is the best time to act. Before the BG's have control over the situation/people. If you're tied up on the floor in the back room, it's too late.

He would never allow himself to get tied up, or even placed on his knees with his back turned. Neither would I. But that is not what happened, and not what we are talking about, is it. And I think a guy who HAS had to use deadly force, trains consistently to do so, and often has to make shoot/no shoot decisions is a better training aid than a person who has read someones book or attended a few classes.

You have to remember too, my friend was confident in his abilities to put shots on targets, even moving ones, but bad guys can and do miss. Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Wildscar wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Sound to me he is really frustrated that he was not better armed. Would he have done more if he had a larger caliber with and extra mag or two?

Even with a .45 and extra mags, he believes it was best not to engage unless they became violent. That is just a hard pill for a guy like him to swallow.

A friend of mine, and a SWAT cop and instructor, was recently off duty having a late night munchies breakfast at a waffle house and the place was nearly full. Two criminals entered the place armed with handguns and immediately fired a round into the floor. (an AD maybe?)

The pointed the guns at the customers and employees and robbed the place, employees and customers included.

My friend was only armed with a Kel Tek .380. He is very capable of quick, decisive and lethal action, I have seen him move. He has been in shootings, shootouts and many SWAT raids. He trains more than the average guy.

Because of the number of people in the place, the separation of the bad guys and the small gun he carried along with no extra ammo, he decided to only engage if the became violent. Fortunately it did not, and when the left, he identified himself as a cop, told the manager to call 911 and pursued the robbers on foot.

He was a good distance behind to start, and lost them after a short foot chase.

His lessons; for him, the .380 is restricted to backup and deep concealment carry. He will always carry a more potent handgun. He will always carry at least one extra mag.

He believes, as do I, that his decision to not engage was correct. It would have been tactically bad to engage, and there was too great a chance of other customers being hurt/killed. If they asked for wallets, he would have engaged as his badge and ID were inside.

He is really ticked off over having to allow that to happen, but we both know it was correct.

There have been several threads here about being in a place that is held up and what would you do. Well, now you know what a seasoned, well trained and motivated SWAT cop would do.

Be safe boys and girls.