TexasCHLforum.com

baldeagle wrote:So if a business didn't post 30.06 you would absolve them of all responsibility for the safety and security of their customers? Probably not, so now you have to write a law that anticipates every possibility. For example, what if a bad guy walks in to a store with a gun to rob it, a chl responds and shoots the bad guy but also hits a bystander? Does the store have any responsibility? Can they be sued for allowing carry which led to the shooting? Can they be held responsible for allowing the bad guy in the store that led to the shooting?

It quickly becomes extremely complicated to write a law that does the simple thing you claim to want to do - "persuade" store owners to allow you to carry in their store.

Let me clarify. Everyone is currently liable if they are negligent in some duty and that negligence causes harm to others. This applies to a homeowner and a business owner, and everyone else. If a property owner (home or business) does something that creates a dangerous environment and they then fail to take reasonable precautions to mitigate that danger, they are likely to be found negligent and will be subject to damages.

This is one reason why your home insurance rates will be higher if you have a trampoline, because ultimately the insurance company will be paying the judgment / settlement when one of your kid's friends breaks their arm. That payout will be larger if the safety net around the trampoline was in disrepair and you had not bothered to repair the several large holes that had been pointed out to you on numerous occasions. There is a foreseeable risk and you were negligent because you did nothing to mitigate that risk.

Another poster has already pointed out the wet floor example. If a customer slips on a wet floor and breaks their arm, the business may be liable. And if it can be shown that several other customers had pointed out the wet floor to the store owner over the course of an hour, but the owner didn't bother to put up signs or mop the floor, that store owners liability is magnified because their negligence led to the customer's injury.

I believe that creating a free fire zone on your property is more dangerous than allowing wet tile floors to stay wet. If a business owner creates this dangerous environment through the posting of signs, they should be held liable for their negligence unless they effectively mitigate that risk somehow.

VoiceofReason wrote:Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. If I am on someone’s property at their invitation or lawfully otherwise, they have the right to tell me what I can or cannot do. They also have the responsibility to ensure my safety and security.

completely with this part of your post.

I think we are getting too detailed when we talk about requiring metal detectors, etc. If the law simply said that a business posting a 30.06 and 30.07 sign is responsible for ensuring the safety of their forcibly unarmed customers, that should be enough.

It would be up to the business to determine how they go about providing safety to their customers. One way would be by installing metal detectors. Another would be by hiring armed guards. If something bad happens and a customer is the victim of a violent crime, a jury could decide whether the business took all reasonable precautions or whether the business was negligent in their duty.

Of course, the business could avoid this increased responsibility by taking down their signs....

cyphertext wrote:

Soccerdad1995 wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I live in Katy and I work in Houston. Since January 1, I have not had a single location I visit that now prohibits CC where they did not do so before. My work has always prohibited the possession of weapons by policy, but not by law (no signs). That did not change. I have been to 11 restaurants (including fast food). None are posted at all. I have been to 7 stores. Only one of these is posted (an HEB), and that is only 30.07.

The only difference for me is that I can now OC pretty much every place that I would normally go. I don't think that I am in the minority to say that there has been no noticeably negative impact for me. I think that a lot of folks are focusing on the number of entries on Texas30.06 without thinking about whether they are really even impacted at all.

That said, I am fortunate to have a pretty broad selection of stores and restaurants for anything I might want, so even if some of my "favorite" places post, I will just have to find new "favorites". I do feel for anyone in a rural area who loses every reasonably close place to buy groceries and the like.

Get back to me when you try to take the family to Half Price Books, AMC Theaters, or Denny's just to name a few. If you haven't seen 30.07 signs up, you haven't been looking.

I won't be getting back to you because I haven't been to a HPB in at least 10 years. If I want a book, I usually go to Amazon. Why go to AMC theatres when Santikos is nearby? Santikos blows any other theatre out of the water, IMHO. Denny's? Yeah, not losing much there, either.

I didn't say that there was no place near me posting signs. I said that there was no place I would normally have gone that has banned CC and only one place that bans OC, and I have not had to change my normal routine at all to avoid such places. I also said that I have a wealth of alternatives if I start to encounter more places that don't value my rights. And I don't think that I am in the minority.

I realize that others have had to make more adjustments to their routine. But is the loss of a bookstore really that much of a tragedy in the grand scheme of things? Bookstores (of all types) are headed toward extinction, IMHO, just like Blockbuster. So we will lose all of them soon enough.

Those were just off the top of the list of recent businesses... Never heard of "Santikos", but you have heard of AMC, and Cinemark... both major chains that have posted, with Cinemark being 30.07 only. And saying that you go to Amazon instead of HPB... well, Amazon is not a physical book store, so there is no comparison there. My family enjoys HPB, because they have books, music, and games and my son sells a lot of books there as well.

The Perot Museum has posted, another place my family enjoyed. Top Golf... another place that posted 30.06 after OC became a discussion. We have even seen gas stations posting in our area. Sprout's grocery posted when OCT began doing their marches and going into businesses...

Great that you have not been affected, but many in the DFW area have.

I am not trying to make light of the situation, and I know that some have been impacted and have had to choose between altering their purchasing behavior or going unarmed. It sounds like you have been much more negatively impacted than I have been and I understand that sucks. From what you listed, you have not been able to attend AMC theatres and have had to go to Cinemark instead, you have had to explore other options for books (Barnes and Noble or maybe smaller independent booksellers), lost a museum, and need to go hit golf balls at a different range. You have also had to avoid going into certain gas station buildings (I'm assuming you can still pump gas there), and have had to find a new grocery store. Personally, I think Sprouts is over rated, so hopefully HEB / Kroger / Wherever will not be too much of a downgrade. Of all these things, HPB may be the biggest loss as there is a notable difference with the alternatives.

I was simply relaying my own personal experience and the fact that this has not had any negative impact on me. I just came from a meeting with my banker and I open carried (Chase) with no issues at all. That is something I could not do before. I suspect that there are people in both our camps, and a lot of people somewhere in between. I just think that it would be nice to understand the real impact this is having on people as opposed to folks just listing every business that is posted regardless of whether they otherwise frequented that business.

My personal feeling is that a lot of folks on this board were very anti-OC before it passed, for whatever reason. Those folks are now very quick to point out every business that is posting regardless of whether they are personally impacted at all.

cyphertext wrote:

Soccerdad1995 wrote:I live in Katy and I work in Houston. Since January 1, I have not had a single location I visit that now prohibits CC where they did not do so before. My work has always prohibited the possession of weapons by policy, but not by law (no signs). That did not change. I have been to 11 restaurants (including fast food). None are posted at all. I have been to 7 stores. Only one of these is posted (an HEB), and that is only 30.07.

The only difference for me is that I can now OC pretty much every place that I would normally go. I don't think that I am in the minority to say that there has been no noticeably negative impact for me. I think that a lot of folks are focusing on the number of entries on Texas30.06 without thinking about whether they are really even impacted at all.

That said, I am fortunate to have a pretty broad selection of stores and restaurants for anything I might want, so even if some of my "favorite" places post, I will just have to find new "favorites". I do feel for anyone in a rural area who loses every reasonably close place to buy groceries and the like.

Get back to me when you try to take the family to Half Price Books, AMC Theaters, or Denny's just to name a few. If you haven't seen 30.07 signs up, you haven't been looking.

I won't be getting back to you because I haven't been to a HPB in at least 10 years. If I want a book, I usually go to Amazon. Why go to AMC theatres when Santikos is nearby? Santikos blows any other theatre out of the water, IMHO. Denny's? Yeah, not losing much there, either.

I didn't say that there was no place near me posting signs. I said that there was no place I would normally have gone that has banned CC and only one place that bans OC, and I have not had to change my normal routine at all to avoid such places. I also said that I have a wealth of alternatives if I start to encounter more places that don't value my rights. And I don't think that I am in the minority.

I realize that others have had to make more adjustments to their routine. But is the loss of a bookstore really that much of a tragedy in the grand scheme of things? Bookstores (of all types) are headed toward extinction, IMHO, just like Blockbuster. So we will lose all of them soon enough.

I live in Katy and I work in Houston. Since January 1, I have not had a single location I visit that now prohibits CC where they did not do so before. My work has always prohibited the possession of weapons by policy, but not by law (no signs). That did not change. I have been to 11 restaurants (including fast food). None are posted at all. I have been to 7 stores. Only one of these is posted (an HEB), and that is only 30.07.

The only difference for me is that I can now OC pretty much every place that I would normally go. I don't think that I am in the minority to say that there has been no noticeably negative impact for me. I think that a lot of folks are focusing on the number of entries on Texas30.06 without thinking about whether they are really even impacted at all.

That said, I am fortunate to have a pretty broad selection of stores and restaurants for anything I might want, so even if some of my "favorite" places post, I will just have to find new "favorites". I do feel for anyone in a rural area who loses every reasonably close place to buy groceries and the like.