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by Keith B
Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:22 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: 51 Rule Question
Replies: 37
Views: 8039

Re: 51 Rule Question

ScottDLS wrote: I would have to say based on the 2009 changes to the law that if a true 51% location didn't post properly, it is NOT the CHL responsibility to figure it out. Now if I was pretty sure the place was 51%, I would walk out. Defense to prosecution for 51% location not posted... now you have one AS OF 2009.

Could be arrested? Yes. So, every time I hear this argument I'm going to say that having a CHL was only "Defense" to UCW until 1997. So you "could be arrested". Take the ride. Pay for your defense. Sit in jail. Well I guess it could happen to anyone.

It even happened to "Handog" in the other thread and he didn't just have a defense. He was innocent. Still arrested, still took the ride, still sat in jail.

Wow, I'm wondering if I might get arrested for owning a handgun. It's not illegal, but I'm not sure if I want to "take the ride" if local DA or judge decides she doesn't like handguns and thinks "civilians" in Texas shouldn't own them. I mean I might be right, but do I really want to be the dreaded "test case".
You need to understand what the term 'Defense to Prosecution' means. This is not saying you didn't break the law. If you enter a 51% establishment without a sign, you ARE still breaking the law. The Defense to Prosecution means you have a good excuse for the DA or Judge to drop the charges of why you broke the law, because the business didn't post the sign and you didn't realize it was a 51% joint, but you still broke the law as written. You can still be prosecuted if they determine you actually knew it was a 51% place and carried there just because the business hadn't properly posted the sign.

In the case of handog, he DID NOT break the law and they determined even though arrested there was no violation and the Judge determined he hadn't broken the law (accidental per the Judge's words) so he was let go.
by Keith B
Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:52 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: 51 Rule Question
Replies: 37
Views: 8039

Re: 51 Rule Question

jeelliott71 wrote: It doesn't matter if TABC made a mistake or not! It is not the CHL's responsibility to determine what the place should be. If a sign if there; NO GO! No sign; CARRY AWAY!
It is the business's responsibility to place the sign and the correct one! And they changed the law, and now it's defense for you if the wrong/no sign is there!
This is incorrect. It is YOUR responsibility as a CHL to determine if a location is 51%, whether there is a sign or not, or even the wrong sign posted. If you carry into a 51% location and are caught, you are violating the law, right/wrong/no sign. The law that was changed last year only allows for a defense to prosecution if there is no sign, but that is AFTER you have been arrested and charged and the judge is ruling on your guilt. So, if it even has the potential to be a 51% location, you best check the liquor license to see if it says SIGN=RED before carrying.
by Keith B
Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:21 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: 51 Rule Question
Replies: 37
Views: 8039

Re: 51 Rule Question

JJVP wrote:
Keith B wrote:
JJVP wrote:
srothstein wrote: If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.
If they have the Red sign, they have the wrong sign,

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06,
Not necessarily. They may be licensed for on-premise and a 51% location, but that doesn't mean they can't decide to only sell for out the door and not allow folks to consume on premise, even though they could drink it there legally.
Technically you might be correct, however I doubt that any business (bar) that is licensed to sell alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption would not allow folks to consume on premises.
True, but that is not the point. As Steve said, it doesn't matter what the owner of the location does, or what the owner THINKS he should be, if the TABC says they are a 51% location, and issue them that license, then they are a 51% location and you cannot carry there. Trust Mr. Rothstein when it comes to TABC matters, he is the expert on here. :thumbs2:
by Keith B
Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:52 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: 51 Rule Question
Replies: 37
Views: 8039

Re: 51 Rule Question

JJVP wrote:
srothstein wrote: If they only sell bottles of sealed alcohol and do not let you open the bottle in the store, if the license says the sign is red then the place is off limits to a CHL.
If they have the Red sign, they have the wrong sign,

GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06,
Not necessarily. They may be licensed for on-premise and a 51% location, but that doesn't mean they can't decide to only sell for out the door and not allow folks to consume on premise, even though they could drink it there legally.
by Keith B
Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:13 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: 51 Rule Question
Replies: 37
Views: 8039

Re: 51 Rule Question

MedicMan218 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:If you are unsure and want to know if a business is a 51% location, just look at their liquor license and see if it says "sign = red" or "sign = blue." If it's blue, you're fine; if it's red it's a 51% location.
I've never seen a TABC liquor licence(never had a need) so I'm unsure what this whole "sign = red" or "sign = blue" stuff is all about. I did a google image search and that turned up no results. Does anyone have a picture of a sample licence so I can see what in the world yall are talkin about?
Thanks in advance!!
If you look on the license, which should be posted somewhere close to the bar, it will actually say Sign = Red or Sign = Blue. Blue means the location does not get more than 50% of their income from liquor sales, they are to post a unlicensed carry sign (the blue ones you see at the quick stops, grocery stores and restaurants) and it is OK to carry unless posted with a 30.06 sign. Sign = Red means they are a 51% location and are off-limits to concealed carry. The Sign = Red means they are supposed to post a 51% sign.

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