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G.A. Heath wrote:Actually we have had a test case of sorts, shortly after Heller if I'm not mistaken. The following is done completely from memory:

I believe it was United States V. Dorosan and was heard in the 5th circuit court of appeals (Which covers Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi). The good news is that this an unpublished opinion which by my understanding means that it set no precedent. Essentially the 5th circuit concluded that because the parking lot was used for the loading and unloading of mail it would be considered a sensitive place which Heller allowed for a ban on firearms. Additionally they also concluded that the Post Office's ban was legal because the post had constitutional authority to do so as the property owner. In essence we have had a test case, but it really doesn't count for much.

Good cite. I did some internet research on the case and interestingly, it seems to bear out a point that I made (way) earlier in this thread that 18 USC 930 doesn't apply outside of the facilities (buildings), if at all. The "information" under which Dorosan was charged was amended by the US attorney to charge him under 39 C.F.R. § 232 instead of 18 USC 930. The maximum penalty under 39 CFR 232 is $50/30days...

Since Dorosan was an employee, I think his appeal to the 5th circuit (which affirmed his conviction) had more to do with keeping his job than avoiding the penalty.

Driving 70mph on the Baltimore/Washington parkway is a federal crime too, and has a higher penalty than 39 CFR 232. I'm not suggesting doing either one... just repeating what I've discovered.

pt145ss wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:I don't read it exactly that way. I don't think that the CFR can overrride the elements of the crime defined in the statute (18 USC 930), which defines "facility" as a building and not the property. So I don't think you could be convicted under 18 USC 930 for having a gun in the parking lot.

There is a penalty defined in the CFR for violating postal regulations... and it is $50 fine/up to 30 days in jail that can be imposed by a federal magistrate.

Ok...so if they do not covict you under 18 USC 930, then they will convict under 39 CFR 232. Is that a misdemeanor? How will that effect your CHL?

Under 39 CFR 232 a $50 fine & up to 30 days in jail can be imposed by a US magistrate. It's possible that it is considered a civil penalty. My opinion it would count as a class C misdemeanor under Texas law and not affect your CHL.

pt145ss wrote:I was fairly convinced at first that there was no way they could prevent carry in a parking lot given they are a "Federal Facility" especially given how they reference 18 USC 930. I'm glad you guys challenged me to research the codes for myself (the Ohio lawyer thing lost me a bit). After looking it all over, I'm fairly conviced that the postal property in its entirety is off limits. That is until there is some case law that challenges that.

I guess you learn something new everyday.

I don't read it exactly that way. I don't think that the CFR can overrride the elements of the crime defined in the statute (18 USC 930), which defines "facility" as a building and not the property. So I don't think you could be convicted under 18 USC 930 for having a gun in the parking lot.

There is a penalty defined in the CFR for violating postal regulations... and it is $50 fine/up to 30 days in jail that can be imposed by a federal magistrate.

OK. So a lot of the post office carry threads seem to focus on whether the "other lawful (purposes)" part of 18 USC 930 can be construed to allow carry in the "facility" or "building"... so let's say it DOESN'T.

The next question is whether 18 USC 930 definition of Federal Facilities applies to Post Offices. It is possible that it does. If so...carry in the post office buildings would be a crime (a federal misdemeanor, though a serious one w/ 1 yr jail/$10,000 fine)... if they were posted... which most that I have seen ARE signs reference 18 USC 930. However the PROPERTY...like parking lots, etc. is not included in that statute.

Then there is the postal regulation in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) prohibiting "weapons" on postal property. Regulations must have have an enabling statute. For the CFR relating to post offices, the law is 39 USC 410 which is not a federal criminal statute. The CFR does provide a penalty for violating its regulations, which is up to a $50 fine and 30 days in jail which can be imposed by a federal magistrate. I'm no expert in criminal law, but this seems more like a civil penalty...

Are we back on topic?

ELB wrote:

drjoker wrote:I've avoided carrying at the post office due to what I've read on the forum. However, I don't see a 30.06 sign at the post office. Don't they have to give notification? ....

Nope. 30.06 and notification is state law. USPS and other federal facilities are not governed by that.

Actually if they are using 18 USC 930 to bar carry, then they DO have to provide notice as described in Federal law.

§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
...
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, .... and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

austinrealtor wrote:search this forum and you'll find a ton of threads debating this issue.

This is a good write up about the subject from an Ohio attorney http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Conceale ... -awakening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And take a look at the US Codes mentioned in the link above. I refer my students to the specific US Codes and to the above write up.

I've posted this before in an earlier thread...but I did some research in the Federal criminal code and CFR and my understading is that if the post office is using 18 USC 930 to prohibit carry then it only covers "facilities" which generally means in the building and also carries notice requirements. There is some question whether 18 USC 930 applies to Post Offices. The post office regs prohibiting carry on their "property" seem to point to 39 USC 410 as their authority and that's what the Buckeye posting discusses, but then goes off to reference an Ohio law which is irrelevant in Texas. As I point out in my post below if the restriction is based on 39 USC 410, the maximum penalty that applies is a $50 fine and possible 30 days in jail.


--------------Here's my original post where I was asking a follow up of Chas. on which Federal law he felt applied to the Post Office prohibition.--------------------
A few things that come to mind in this discussion...

What is the implementing legislation for the CFR prohibiting firearms on Post Office property? If it is 18 USC 930, then I agree you could not carry in a Post Office facility, but you'd seem to be OK in the parking lot and on the property based on the definition of facility and the requirements for posting notice in the law.

If it's 39 USC 410 as the Buckeye Firearms attorney suggests in his web page analysis, then I don't find the elements of the crime nor a definition of the punishment for violating the regulation, at least not in the law (39 USC 410). In fact, if 18 USC 930 is not applicable, the penalty described in the CFR (not the law) is a $50 fine and up to 30 days in jail that could be imposed by a federal magistrate. Same as you could get for smoking, posting handbills, or other conduct prohibited by the Postal CFR. That's kind of the federal equivalent of a Texas Class C misdemeanor, not that I'd advocate breaking the law.

The Buckeye firearms attorney goes on to describe an Ohio law that makes it an Ohio felony to carry where prohibited/posted. So what I see here in Texas... Either you can carry on postal property, but not in a facility, based on 18 USC 930. Or you can't carry on either, based on 39 CFR 232.1, but the maximum penalty is $50 fine and 30 days in jail, and that's IF the CFR can act to create a crime that is not set out in an enabling statute or elsewhere in federal criminal law