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ClarkLZeuss wrote:This is a very good discussion to have, and thanks to all who provided real life info on body armor. That makes me more comfortable with my Kahr P9/ 7+1 / 9mm.

HOWEVER, it's more the incidents lately with guys drugged up on "bath salts" and what not that's got me thinking about a move up to a Glock 36 Slimline .45. It's only one less round than my Kahr, but the step up in caliber seems worth it to me. Plus, whenever I carry an extra mag for the Kahr, it has a bad habit of popping out a round or two sometimes. I've never liked how they design their mags, and am much more impressed with Glock mags. It could be that I carry the Kahr mag loosely in my pocket - I should have a mag pouch, but I don't want something else on my belt.

But as someone said, I have the other factors of stewarding money well and keeping the wife happy.

When I was looking for a small, single stack, striker-fired .45, I narrowed my search down to the G36 and the Kahr CW45 pretty quickly. I bought the Kahr. I bought it for two reasons: 1) I already owned a PM9 and I like the Kahr platform, an 2) the Kahr was $399 versus $565 for the Glock in the same store (Cheaper than Dirt, Fort Worth). If you like your Kahr, take a look at the CW45. BTW, I have also pocket carried this gun, although it is better in a holster, and I have had none of the "rounds popping out" issue with the CW45 spare magazine which can happen with the 9mm. Also, with a fairly simple modification, you can adapt 1911 magazines to fit the CW45.

But the deal maker/breaker for me was the price. $166 difference for no appreciable increase in performance from the Glock made the Kahr the choice for me. Same nice Kahr trigger, etc. So if you like your Kahr, give the CW45 a look-see.

snatchel wrote:Haha. I love watching this video. This guy is a champ

Did you look at the bruising in those three pictures? It was almost enough to convince me that I'd just rather be shot!

SQLGeek wrote:A little while back I selected a G19 for my EDC and I am still comfortable with that choice. This gave me pause, sure but I figure 15+1 of 9mm with a spare magazine is still better odds than nothing at all. This is a point I've made to several friends who've said "He was in body armor, what could you CCWers do?"

Body armor isn't a panacea either. Ask someone who's been shot up close whether it hurt or not. It can the wind out of you. A double tap into body armor can drive you to your knees if it hurts enough. Beyond that the two North Hollywood B of A bank robbers were riddled with bullets, despite their armor, before they ultimately died. When a bullet enters just under your armpit, where there is no armor, and transects your aortic arch, it doesn't care if you're wearing armor, and you're still going to bleed out in about 15 seconds or less.

Video of a bullet-proof vest demonstration. He is shot by a Glock 19 with a 124 grain FMJ while wearing a vest certified to NIJ Level IIIA + protection. The actual shot is fired a little after 5:00 on the video:
[youtube][/youtube]

Warning, very small amount of blood, LOTS OF BRUISING!!

5 minutes after being shot in vest: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rc5-xU1T5r4/T ... +after.jpg

1 hour after being shot in vest: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n1KgcIqSkWo/T ... +after.jpg

1 day after being shot in vest: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0gevEZqTyNA/T ... +after.jpg

I think a 9mm is probably sufficient, most of the time. OTH, this guy would have still been in the fight with just one shot, thanks to his vest. But when you see his reaction, you'll understand why 2 or 3 quick shots into his COM would most likely disable him.....unless he was amped up on some kind of drug.....long enough for you to be able to either follow up or get away—which ever seems the best alternative at the time.

snatchel wrote:

USA#1 wrote:I have to admit, this is a debate I have in my head daily. For years, I carried a Keltec 380 and hated this pistol due to constant jams. I did not trust the weapon. But I loved the size. I just purchased a Beretta Nano and I get to carry my Black Talon bullets I purchased in 1991. Yes I have ammo older than most gang banging thugs. LOL. While I like the Remora no clip holster I purchased, I am just not sure if I am comfortable enough to carry it all the time. I really want the extra size in ammo, 9mm vs 380, but I am considering going back to the 380 for ease of carry. I have been trying different positions and have yet to find one that I don't have to consistently fool with while sitting down or going about my business. Any suggestions would be great. How much of a difference between a 9mm and 380 with 2-3 shots to the chest? Is it enough to carry a 9mm instead of a 380?

You're going to start a caliber war... we have plenty of those going on in other threads! LoL

Seriously though, the fact that your .380 doesn't work consistently is enough to carry the 9mm instead.

As far as suggestions:

If you don't have a proper gunbelt, get one.

Remora Holsters work fine for me.. I wear one all the time, appendix.

No caliber war from me, except to say that I am not comfortable with .380, and I am comfortable with 9mm. I do believe that 2 or 3 9mm to the COM will be a lot more effective than 2 or 3 .380s would be...primarily due to deeper penetration. Plus, in winter, a 9mm has a much better chance of penetrating heaving clothing than a .380. Will a .380 stop or kill a man? Yes, it will. However, if you look at the statistics for "one shot stops" for both .380 and 9mm, you're almost certainly going to find that 9mm has a much better percentage (for you.....not so much for the bad guy). That said, a lot of it is dependent on how much fight is in the bad guy. People have been shot multiple times with 9mm or .45 and stayed in the fight. Ditto people shot with .357 magnums and 12 gauge shotguns. Not always, but it isn't unheard of. I remember the first few gunshot patients I helped to treat. I remember being surprised that they were, for the most part, conscious, lucid, and clearly able to describe what happened. They were badly hurt, but not totalled. If fighting for their very lives, they probably could have done so. The point is that even acknowledged powerhouse pistol cartridges are not magic hammers of Thor. So given that, why carry an inferior cartridge if there is any way around it?

Rifle bullets on the other hand are a completely different animal. When my dad was shot in the chest by a Japanese Arisaka rifle on Iwo, he said that it felt like had had been kicked by a mule and it knocked him down and simply flattened him for a couple of minutes until he could get his wind back. They are simply devastating....which is why if I knew there was going to be trouble and I couldn't avoid it, I'd bring a rifle every single time.

Three or four years ago, when people said that they couldn't find a pocketable 9mm or .45, it was mostly true. But it isn't true any longer. My Kahr PM9 is a tiny bit bigger than the Kel-Tec P3AT, but it truly is a tiny difference when it comes to concealment. The PM9 is no more difficult to conceal than the P3AT was, but 6 rounds of 9mm with a 7 round reload beats 6 rounds of .380 with a 6 round reload every single time. The fact is, you can get an relatively affordable and pocketable pistol in 9mm or .45 ACP these days. So why bother with the .380? If that's what you've already got, and you can't afford to buy another gun, then you carry what you have. But if you're in the market for a pocketable pistol of sufficient power, I wouldn't waste my time on a .380 when there are so many good choices in 9mm/.45 ACP.

Shinesintx wrote:

psijac wrote:The likelyhood ofcoming against a hard target is exceedingly small. People are comparing this event with the north Hollywood shoot out over 2 decades ago.

There is a lot of truth to your statements...but I was just wondering how many of those that carry, have become less comfortable and would they change anything.

I was living and working in SoCal when that went down. The family of one of the shooters lived literally right around the corner from me. I'm not carrying for Armageddon, if you stop to think about it. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought a rifle along......

.....CW45: 6+1 plus 1 spare 7 round mag. 14 total rounds.

.....XDm 45 Compact 3.8: 9+1 plus 1 spare 13 round mag. 23 total rounds. That's the highest capacity gun I carry, not counting when I borrow my wife's G19. 23 rounds is plenty enough. If I need more, then I have larger issues, and the primary reason I carry a spare magazine is in case of a malfunction. However, if I have to reload, due to either malfunction or running dry, I just find a 13 round reload a lot more comforting than a 9 round reload.

OTH, I live so as to avoid these things if at all possible.

I have two pocket sized guns that I carry occasionally. One is a 9mm. The other is a .357 magnum. Both are calibers that will get the job done. But my two primary carry guns are both .45 ACP pistols, as are the two other large framed pistols that I occasionally carry. So no, I don't feel like I need to revisit caliber. If you tag someone in the vitals with a good +P 9mm, they're going to be hit pretty much as hard as if they'd been shot with a .40 or a .45. And .357 magnums have accounted for an awful lot of 1 shot stops over the years. But I absolutely will not carry a .380 or some smaller caliber.

To me, the issue isn't caliber so much as capacity. My EDC is a CW45, and while it isn't a 3" 1911, it has the same limitation as a 3" 1911.......capacity. I don't plan on getting into a running gun battle. Not ever. But, men make plans, and God directs their path, as the Good Book says. The whole reason I recently acquired a XDm 45 Compact is that it has a higher capacity than my Kahr without the bulk of a full-sized gun. My CW45 remains my primary EDC simply because it is smaller and lighter and easier to carry, but I have begun carrying the XDm precisely when I am placing myself into situations (like movie theaters) where rapid egress may not be as easily accomplished and the tactical situation may be more confusing or confining. The XDm also has an excellent set of night sights on it. But when I'm driving around, I don't worry about that so much. My SUV is a much more potent weapon than any pistol if capacity is an issue, and I can use it to di-di mau out of there.