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casingpoint wrote:03lightningrocks,

My question was merely a matter of legal fiction. In such instances as the above described Wal Mart robbery, at what point is a shooting of the perpetrator(s) justifiable in self defense or the defense of others. Not that one would open fire in a crowded public place once the threshold of justification has been crossed. Far from it. As you mention, the resulting misunderstandings between parties could get you killed. The third party civil liability issues are enormous.

On the other hand, some incidents happening today would seem to dictate an immediate response. One should know how to identify when justification turns the corner.

I agree that it can get tricky deciding when or if I would get involved. In a situation like the one at this Walmart, I would probably try to position myself behind some cover and wait to see what he does next. I know one thing for certain. I'm not a cop and have a good chance of making things worse if I try to play hero. I probably wouldn't do anything unless he started shooting people. I have wondered at times how folks around me(or even the police) are to know if I am a GG or BG once I pull my weapon. In a public place like a wally world, pulling out a handgun could get real dicey, for the GG as well as the BG.

For now I just hope and prey I never get put in that situation. Like you, my thoughts are pretty much hypothetical as well. I am thinking the big question for us would be why we thought we needed to bring our weapon into play. If we gunned down an innocent bystander they would probably be telling us to bend over for the cavity search.

casingpoint wrote:In the instant case, is there justification for a good shoot? Can you take these people out once they begin their robbery effort, or do you wait until they start busting caps on people? Personally, I would be in fear of my life and great bodily harm when the robbery commences, given the propensity for suspects to shoot victims in these type situations.

And what happens if I am standing where I can't see the robbery taking place and assume you are shooting at innocents. I pull my weapon and blast you.

Another scenario, you miss or make a hit that doesn't take the guy down. The BG starts shooting back. Innocents end up shot all over Wally World. All of this so some clown doesn't make off with a hundred bucks??? There is a reason stores tell their clerks to give up the money without a fight.

As far as the fear of being shot in a retail store armed robbery. It is a fact that most armed robbery situations like this, only turn into shootings after resistance is offered. All the robber wants is the money. Give him what he wants and let him leave. If the guy already has a weapon pointed at you, you would be shot before you could clear your holster anyway. If he has it pointed at someone else...they would be shot because you pulled your weapon and started shooting.

We are not trained police officers. The chances are good, in a situation like this, we would end up causing innocents to die if we try to act like we are cops.

bryang wrote:This is a very good lesson in being aware of any and everyone around you, not just the ones that look a certain way. Who would ever expect a man driving a BMW to have just held up Wal Mart! You just don't know...be aware, be alert, be prepared, and always be in conditional yellow!

-geo

LOL...a man driving a BMW???? That is one way to put it. I have seen many a gang banger, thug, drug dealing scum driving 60 thousand dollar cars. There is good money in stealing and dealing. But I get what your saying. I was surprised by the same thing. This guy appears to be an amatuer. His days of freedom are numbered....IMHO.


As far as being on the lookout...even if I see somebody jacking wally world, I don't plan to do squawt about it anyway. Wally World doesn't give a hoot. Why should I? As long as the perp isn't shooting at people...I say adios...let him go and let the insurance companies and cops do their jobs.

I always find it curious when folks read these stories and then post comments about this being why they carry a gun. What??? This is why you carry a gun???? It makes me wonder if they think they are the caped crusader or something. This has nothing to do with why we have a CHL. We aren't cops...and we aren't charged with defending the streets from crime. We carry a gun for SELF defense...pure and simple. This is clearly not a case where any CHL holder should get involved...in any way form or fashion. I take that back a little. Maybe provide a good description to the police when they get there. Just like you would do before you received your CHL. It is a CHL...not a junior cop badge. This guy posed no threat of violence to anyone other than the clerk and she did just as she was trained to do. Give him the darned money and let him get out of the store.

ForTehNguyen wrote:could be some of the Katrina trash apparently didnt leave back to NO

We had some of the same problem in the Dallas area. It's not as bad as in Houston, but I don't think we took in as many as Houston did either. I don't think anyone thought about how to get them to leave after the emergency was over. They sure as heck weren't going to go back to NO. Somebody might expect them to get a job. I was in N.O. about a year after the Hurricane. The place was crawling with illegals. All fat and happy making the big bucks cleaning up the mess the very people from there were not willing to clean up. Just after Katrina...our population of "Katrina Refugees" swelled as did our incidence of petty crime and theft. The neighborhoods these fine folks are moving into(usually large chunks of section 8 apartments) are turning to garbage. Guess they wanted to make it more like home. I am beginning to understand the old comment..."there goes the neighborhood".

What the heck is going on in Houston???? It seems every time I turn around there is a post about violent crime there. You know...I lived there as a kid...about a hundred and fifty million years ago, I lived in Pasadena. I decided to show my son(who just moved to Houston to attend law school), where his dad went to elementary and junior high school. I was afraid to get out of the truck. I know for a fact Pasadena was not infested with the thug looking characters I saw all over the place back when I was a kid. That whole darned area needs a great big enema...IMHO. LOL...I couldn't help but repeat over and over again "it wasn't like this when I lived here". San Jacinto Intermediate looked just Like I remembered it...only the hood around it seems to have gone down the crapper.