Search found 5 matches

by mr.72
Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:16 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: A Right to Education?
Replies: 38
Views: 5942

Re: A Right to Education?

txmatt wrote: And to those that keep bringing up how important education is, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with that. Around these parts we spend over $8,000 per pupil per year. And the education they get is very much subpar as far as I can tell. It's the lack of a real education that upsets me, and then having to pay for this lack of education. I really think parents would push their kids harder to make the most out of school if they were paying for it.

Here's the problem, TXMatt.

Parents are paying for it. All of them are. Well, all of them who are not homeless in Texas are in fact paying for it, either directly through property taxes on property they own, or indirectly through rent for property owned by someone else who has to pay those property taxes. But the majority of people either don't understand that they are paying for it, or they don't care. The homeowner with no children and a half-million dollar house who is a couple of years from retirement could care less about that property tax bill. It's the least of this guy's worries. And the single mom with four kids renting a one-bedroom apartment for $600/months and working two jobs to try and make ends meet cannot possibly be expected to understand that part of her rent is paying the property taxes which provide the inferior school her children attend, any more than she can be expected to have any idea what the kids are doing or being taught anyway because she is never at home. If she understood economics enough to get this, then she would not have had four kids she can't afford to raise.

The problem is that you say that some noble "democratic process" is in force with respect to public schools in Texas. But one of two things has to be true in that case. Either there is really no functional democratic process in effect, or the majority of voters prefer the inferior, overpriced public schools we have now. You cannot suggest that there is this pie-in-the-sky democratic process whereby the wisdom of the collective drives public education such that it magically meets the needs of all people, and then also say that the piece of junk school system we have now is the result of such a benevolent system.

So you have to conclude either that people prefer this junk, or that the system is indeed not in effect as you see it. I leave it to you to decide which is true. Either you have no faith in your fellow man, in which case I suggest you do not support a democratic system, or you have no faith in politicians to carry forth the will of the people, in which case you still can't reasonably support a democratic system. In either case, the flaw in the system is the very concept of a democratic system actually working. Democracy doesn't work much better than socialism. That's why this country was not founded as a Democracy.

So since I can't trust the system, either because all of the voters are idiots or because the elected do not represent my interests, then I demand to be able to make choices on my own without the government interfering. That would be freedom.

Vouchers are not the right way to solve this problem, but they are the only politically-viable way to get closer to a solution available at this time.

And FWIW, it doesn't really affect me, or you, or any other individual, if we don't educate everyone else. Except if we are then forced to feed them, or to clothe and house them, or to otherwise bail them out of their poor choice of not acquiring their own education. See, the seed of socialism evolves from Democracy that decides that we are providing something, anything, "for the common good"... it rapidly follows, "to each according to his need", and then you know the rest. Of course if we assume socialism, and then remove public education from our near-socialism at hand, then it is clearly defective. But again, the defect is socialism or near-socialism, and not freedom. Freedom is the solution, not the problem. Introducing freedom into our system reveals the sad state that we have allowed it to achieve.
by mr.72
Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:16 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: A Right to Education?
Replies: 38
Views: 5942

Re: A Right to Education?

txmatt wrote: I have a big problem with vouchers. If you decide to put your kid in some wacky private school that is inferior to public schools (yes, they do exist) or want to use it for religious indoctrination, I should NOT have to pay for it. If I am going to be taxed to pay for other people's education I should at least get some say through the democratic process as to what is taught and how scholastic performance is measured. Don't like that? Then don't make me pay for it.

Vouchers make about as much sense as the healthcare bill that started this discussion about rights.
Your problem is totally misguided, as far as I can tell. The "I should NOT have to pay for it" is the operative phase. You should not have to pay for it, NO MATTER WHAT. The problem is that you DO have to pay for it, and SO DO I even if I am not a consumer of it.

So I could just as easily say, I don't want to pay for it if it is NOT different from your standard of scholastic performance or if it does NOT indoctrinate some religion. Since you say "democratic", well as long as I can get a majority to agree with me then you can be sure you will be made to pay for it. You don't currently have any say, although you can have an opinion. Maybe your opinion coincides with the opinions of the state education people such that you feel like you are getting what you are paying for. But my opinion deviates from that of the state, so should I have to pay for it?

The way to make it fair is that nobody pays for it unless they choose to use it.

Again, this is about freedom. I think most Americans don't really believe in freedom. They want freedoms like being able to drink, smoke pot or marry someone of the same gender but they don't want others to have freedom to choose not to subsidize inferior public education with their money. Americans don't want freedom, they want the illusion of freedom. Money is power. No freedom to do what we please with our money means we really don't have any freedom where there is any power.

This deviates from "a right to education", but that question is irrelevant. You don't have a right to use my money for your education. But the state compels me to allow it.
by mr.72
Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:14 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: A Right to Education?
Replies: 38
Views: 5942

Re: A Right to Education?

Kythas wrote: This is exactly why I support school vouchers. I don't know why the liberals, for the most part, don't support this...ok, yes I do. It takes away from maintaining their monopoly on public education and indoctrinating the masses with what they want to teach.

I find it very telling that the same politicians in Washington DC who keep voting down school vouchers by saying we have excellent public education then turn around and send their children to private schools.
School vouchers are better than nothing, but they should be not some token amount that has been bandied about but the actual to-the-penny amount that is spent in whichever district per student. So if my district spends $9,943.27 per student, then the voucher needs to be exactly that amount .

But better yet would be to charge tuition for public schools and not tax us for school to begin with. Let the gov't provide scholarships, grants and loans to parents who cannot afford to pay for school for their kids, or allow private organizations to provide grants and scholarships. Of course, it would reveal just how overpriced our public schools are and given a choice like this only a fool would choose to spend more to send their kids to public school rather than private school. Without taking our money by force to provide public school, there would be no public school.
by mr.72
Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:01 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: A Right to Education?
Replies: 38
Views: 5942

Re: A Right to Education?

in modern political parlance, "right" seems to have come to be synonymous with "entitlement".
by mr.72
Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:11 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: A Right to Education?
Replies: 38
Views: 5942

Re: A Right to Education?

Of course it is a right. The freedom to acquire an education is a civil right.

Of course, I assume by the framing of the question, what you really mean to ask is not whether "education" is a "right", but whether "the cost of education" is an "entitlement" for which all taxpayers shall rightfully be burdened through the force of law and threat of imprisonment.

If indeed this is the question you intended to ask, regardless of the misleading terminology of "a right to education", then the answer is that historically, the cost of education has been an entitlement provided by the taxpayer in America and this policy has not been challenged by voters en masse.

And FWIW, the 10th Amendment provides a means by which the people, or the states, may choose to burden themselves with the social welfare of providing a free education. This same 10th Amendment also prohibits the Federal government from enforcing this entitlement, and all other entitlements not enumerated in the Constitution, including health health insurance and about 95% of what the Federal Government does at present.

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