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baldeagle wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Thanks, ELB - that is the case I referred to but didn't have the specifics handy.

It is a sad illustration of the wisdom of what happens when someone relies on the "guess right" part of "carry 24/7 or guess right, " even for someone who "almost always" carries, and the remorseless savagery that characterizes the folks who commit these crimes.

In my reading of that story, it's not altogether certain that his weapon would have helped him. Situational awareness might have been more effectual. Once he was shot and on the ground, he might have been able to return fire before he was executed, but the story makes it seem like it happened fast enough that he might not have even been able to draw, much less get off a shot.

He would have had to recognize the danger well before he was shot to survive.

From a detailed reading of multiple accounts of how the incident developed, including the suspects' statements, it happened over an uncharacteristically extended period of time and included a very long prelude conversation and two separate instances of perpetrator approach. I'm pretty sure the victims knew they were in serious trouble at least by the time of the second approach and before they were shot if not much earlier, but they weren't prepared to do anything to stop it.

ELB wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

The guys sticking guns in the ribs of people in parking lots are the vicious sociopaths like the one who gunned down the two young men outside a DFW area Christian music studio a couple years ago for two dollars and a set of car keys. When one of them was later asked during a videotaped post arrest interview what he had to say to the families of the victims who were devastated by the loss, he said "F@$# 'em."

I think Excalibur is referring to (what I think of as) the Garland killings. One of the men killed had a CHL -- but he wasn't carrying at the time. His mother (also a CHL'er) said he normally carried all the time -- in fact, she told the police that her son's killers must have taken his gun, because the police did not find it on his body. But it was later found at his home.

This is an account of the incident: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... ng-us.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is a letter by the CHL instructor of the young man: http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2008 ... myers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is the interview of the one of the killers that Excalibur refers to: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the killers (Broadnax, the one who gave the interview) got the death sentence. I cannot determine what happened to the other one (Cummings).
Update: The Facebook page of one of the victim's family members says Cummings will face trial in early 2011. Don't know why so much later -- Broadnax was tried in 2009.

Thanks, ELB - that is the case I referred to but didn't have the specifics handy.

It is a sad illustration of the wisdom of what happens when someone relies on the "guess right" part of "carry 24/7 or guess right, " even for someone who "almost always" carries, and the remorseless savagery that characterizes the folks who commit these crimes.

Beiruty wrote:One has to ask, when one is hungry has no money and effectively homeless, he most likely will attack like mad grizzlies. Not justifying the crime, but one has to offer jobs for those convicts. Many will never give a job for violent criminals.

The idea that criminals are driven to commit violent crimes by economic need is a false construct of the media. The hungriest and most needy folks out there are among the least likely to engage in this conduct.

The same media breathlessly predict a tsunami of crime every time unemployment spikes, and then are astonished when it doesn't materialize. Street cops aren't surprised at all.

The guys sticking guns in the ribs of people in parking lots are the vicious sociopaths like the one who gunned down the two young men outside a DFW area Christian music studio a couple years ago for two dollars and a set of car keys. When one of them was later asked during a videotaped post arrest interview what he had to say to the families of the victims who were devastated by the loss, he said "F@$# 'em."

Legitimate economic need is not among their motivations, unless you count a drug habit as a need.

Edit:

In reference to parolees' employment prospects, remember that prior conduct is the best predictor of future conduct. Bearing that and the fact that employers can be held liable for damages and injuries caused by people who were hired despite a violent past in mind, would you want the company your wife works for to hire a few of these folks to work with her?

Actions have consequences.

baldeagle wrote:Reading this story had me wondering what the heck is wrong with Ohio. The BG who died was 20 years old. He had just gotten out of prison from a two year sentence for "robbery and weapons charges" and that was his second prison sentence. He had previously been convicted, at the age of seventeen, and sentenced to one year for robbery. If I were a citizen of Ohio, I would be furious with the legal system for such light sentencing for deadly serious crimes. The dead BG demonstrated complete contempt for the Ohio legal system by attempting to commit armed robbery just one week after being released from prison.

Contempt for any form of law or authority is nearly universal among violent criminals.

So is the absolute conviction that they're smart enough not to get caught. Getting caught doesn't disturb this mindset at all.

They scheme with others in prison (who by definition also got caught) to learn what they did wrong and how to do it better next time. They then go back to doing the same things again with "new improved" tactics upon release, and the absolute conviction that this time they've finally got it together and won't get caught. Until they do get caught again.

They repeat this sequence until either the third strike felony conviction and a life sentence, or a terminal encounter with either one of their local acquaintances or an intended victim.

Cunning, yes - smart, no.

seamusTX wrote:Excaliber, I bow to your superior experience.

I just keep thinking of the idiots who walked past a cop car to rob a donut shop, or the guy who tried to rob a gun store with a knife.

- Jim

Jim,

You won't find any unemployed NASA engineers in that line of work, and lots of the folks who ply the street robbery trade in fact have low IQ's compounded by the ingestion / inhalation / injection of a bunch of chemicals that aren't good for anyone. Depending on their state of mind and chemistry at the time, they can do some things that just leave you shaking your head in astonishment like the ones you cited.

That being said, when most of their remaining synapses are firing, they can be remarkably cunning and do things that would take a pretty smart normal guy or gal quite a while to figure out on their own.

The thing to remember is that regardless of how much of the remnants of their minds are operating at the time, they're always vicious, extremely unpredictable, impulsive, and deadly dangerous. The things they'll do to people on a whim and without remorse are stunning in their savagery.

seamusTX wrote:

IIRC, there were a dozen or more instances of a gun being taken away and used against the "owner" -- and the "owner" was always the bad guy.

I don't personally know any murderous felons, but I think the mentality is that having a gun will cause the victim to quake with terror and do whatever the bad guy wants.

Armed robbers are not bright people and probably do not have a plan B for when events do not go as they expected.

(This would not apply to hardened criminals, ninjas, or terrorists.)

- Jim

They may not be Mensa members, but don't underestimate them. They may not be terribly literate and they won't likely be up on the finer aspects of Shakespeare, but they're extremely cunning. That's a specialized and extremely dangerous kind of smart that puts them far ahead of most folks who haven't spent time in their world when it comes to turning people into victims.

For the most part they are hardened criminals, and they give a lot of thought to what they do. They get lots of advice from other "practitioners" when they go to jail and incorporate that information into their tactics when they get out. If you do an after action analysis of these crimes or have the opportunity to listen to these folks talk about how they commit them, you'll see a lot of elements that were very intelligently addressed. Many also do plan to levels B and C.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that armed robbery is not just an economic crime like stealing a GPS from an unoccupied car. It is a crime of direct confrontation with the immediate threat of death, and it has a significant power trip component somewhat akin to rape. These folks are vicious and respond like ticked off rattlers when their terroristic dominance over their victims is challenged. Whether they planned to or not, it doesn't take much to trip their switch to kill you in a heartbeat and without remorse.

If you don't see the situation developing before coming face to face and then decide to move directly against them, you need to pick your moment, go all out, and don't stop until the threat is clearly ended.

You get one chance with no do overs. You'd better get it right.

suthdj wrote:This is one of those stories where you need to think "What could I have done" he was unarmed and did not have a choice of weapons single stack or double, we are not, so would you draw, run and draw, allow them to get control of your weapon etc.... It makes me wonder what can you do when they have the drop on you and your weapon is covered under a shirt. I see best option as taking a zig zag flight while drawing and seeking cover maybe even pop off a couple rounds into the ground while running away to draw attention. So WWYD?

You may want to rethink this.

If the tactical situation is such that you can't even reach for your holstered gun, it's unlikely that running away would be an available option.

Making noise at that point is less likely to get you help than to get you shot. However, if you think that would help, you'd be better off carrying a whistle for that purpose rather than using a firearm to recklessly fire perfectly good defensive ammunition into the ground, thereby making certain it won't hurt a threatening felon and potentially endangering others nearby with ricochets.

I can assure you that the BG's you're confronted with won't be amused, and they won't be firing their rounds into the ground either.

The gentleman in the OP who found himself in this situation did rather well. He picked his moment, counterattacked with what he had at hand, and followed through until the situation was resolved. My hat is off to him. He'd fit right in in Texas.

Beiruty wrote:regardless where this happened, form this incident, one has to learn to unload onto 4 robbers at the same time.
For 1911 lovers, hope your single stack will serve you well with no misses. XDM owners light them up!

The single stack in the gun and the two spare 8 round single stacks in the mag holder should do quite nicely with enough left over to accommodate the BGs' friends if they decide to join in.