So, anybody else CCW a mousegun?

[RKirby]

I'd rather have a good knife. A 22lr is a better round than a 25.

Although I agree that a .25 is not the perfect defensive caliber by far, I can personally attest to the fact that a single .25 gunshot wound is more than capable of causing serious injury and major blood loss.

In fact it nearly cost the victim his life. If the shooter had been able to get off a second shot I have no doubt he would have accomplished his goal.

I think a sharp tongue is more dangerous than a .25!

I beg to differ.

Never minimize the potential of any round...with careful aim or a little luck, they are all deadly.

Been there, done that!

'Nuff said.

[Dan20703]

I think a sharp tongue is more dangerous than a .25!

I wouldn't want to be shot with this:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/CCI%20Blaze ... 20FMJ.html

Cartridges : CCI Blazer and Sellier and Bellot FMJ
Firearm : Beretta 21a pistol with 2.4" barrel.
Calibration : 10.0 ± 0.05cm and 587 ± 0.500 ft/sec impact velocity.

Shot 1 - Sellier and Bellot 50 grain FMJ. Penetrated to 13.3", no expansion present. Outlined in yellow on the photo.

Shot 2 - CCI Blazer 50 grain FMJ. Penetrated to 16" and exited the back of the block. Bullet was not recovered.

[Dan20703]

I carry a Kel Tec P32 or Bersa .380 many times. Much better than a sharp tongue. That will get you INTO more trouble than get you out of it.

[bevans]

I just bought and broke in the RUGER LCP and i bought it to replace the j frame and man purse

[flb_78]

I just acquired a Kel-Tec P9 from a fellow forum member.

I have started to carry it in my pocket.

[Kurt_S]

Thanks for the answers, folks.

Knives? I carry a pocket knife of some kind everywhere except on a commercial flight. Carried one since I was 8 or 9 years old. But, heck I'm not a knife fighter although a few years back (25?) I did have some training, and some martial arts. Too many years and too many miles.

I bet there's a dead horse in there somewhere

LOL, partner, I tried the search function...
Minimal results, but no doubt you're right.

Carry load? My P3AT functions just sweet with those Winchester white box flat nose FMJ, and just as good with Hornady JHPs (my carry load, 100 test rounds was a bit pricey but worth it). I carry S&B FMJ in the Guardian, I've got a stash of those good old 125 grain Federal Nyclad HPs for the Taurus, and I use Winchester FMJs in the NAA mini.

I have a Raven .25 and a Phoenix .25 but I bought them just for the heck of it, I'd carry a high-functioning .22 first. No special reason except easier & cheaper to practice with. I sure wouldn't want to catch a .25 in the chest or gut.

[mr surveyor]

Thanks for the answers, folks.

Knives? I carry a pocket knife of some kind everywhere except on a commercial flight. Carried one since I was 8 or 9 years old. But, heck I'm not a knife fighter although a few years back (25?) I did have some training, and some martial arts. Too many years and too many miles.

I bet there's a dead horse in there somewhere

LOL, partner, I tried the search function...
Minimal results, but no doubt you're right.

Carry load? My P3AT functions just sweet with those Winchester white box flat nose FMJ, and just as good with Hornady JHPs (my carry load, 100 test rounds was a bit pricey but worth it). I carry S&B FMJ in the Guardian, I've got a stash of those good old 125 grain Federal Nyclad HPs for the Taurus, and I use Winchester FMJs in the NAA mini.

I have a Raven .25 and a Phoenix .25 but I bought them just for the heck of it, I'd carry a high-functioning .22 first. No special reason except easier & cheaper to practice with. I sure wouldn't want to catch a .25 in the chest or gut.

you can bet that in every thread involving caliber wars there is a massive beating of the dead horse

surv

[yerasimos]

I will confess to a degree of caliber snobbery, but I also agree with the principle that shot placement is the key to successful social marksmanship, and admit that plenty of people have been despatched with "lowly" .22, .25, .380 and even 9mm cartridges.

That said, I have no interest in mouseguns, period. I am fortunate enough that my physique accommodates carrying larger handguns such as those admitted for IDPA competition, and I am not clinically print-a-phobic nor particularly recoil-sensitive. For me, spending the time to develop skill with mouseguns does not seem worth the effort, as the time would be better spent improving my skills with larger, heavier handguns using more powerful cartridges loaded with better-engineered bullets. I understand that the mouseguns are difficult to quickly acquire in a full fighting grip and are more difficult to control and reload under stress than the larger handguns. If I can conceal and control a full-sized handgun, why downsize? Too little output for the input required.

[Greybeard]

Quote: "If I can conceal and control a full-sized handgun, why downsize?"

Some folks can't - or won't.

It seems that mouse guns are indeed the everyday "primary carry gun" for a surprising percentage of CHL people, people who, by human nature, would otherwise not carry at all due to discomfort or (often simply perceived) difficulty concealing something larger.

From the feedback received in renewal classes over the years, maybe 50 percent of TX license holders in our area actually carry regularly "on body". And about half of those have decided to "downsize" rather than carry one exclusively in the car - or even worse, not have one with them at all.

[HighVelocity]

I'd rather have a good knife. A 22lr is a better round than a 25.

You really gonna bring a knife to a gunfight?

Of course not. If I know there's going to be a gunfight, I'll stay home. Meanwhile, I'm going to be carrying a 45 and a pocket knife.

[yerasimos]

Quote: "If I can conceal and control a full-sized handgun, why downsize?"

Some folks can't - or won't.

It seems that mouse guns are indeed the everyday "primary carry gun" for a surprising percentage of CHL people, people who, by human nature, would otherwise not carry at all due to discomfort or (often simply perceived) difficulty concealing something larger.

In my view, this reduces to mental roadblocks or lack of motivation to seek and obtain appropriate gear.

I question the reasoning behind, "Have a gun." These three words seem to imply that having any gun---even a gun you are unfamiliar with or have difficulty shooting properly---is inherently better than not having a gun. I disagree; if you cannot get a weapon into play quickly enough, it may as well be left in a safe at home; if you cannot produce hits on a threat upon demand, you delay in stopping the threat and risk injuring or damaging someone or something that did not merit shooting. Mouseguns and related gear trend toward all of these undesirable directions, and provide easily-retailed "solutions" (excuses) for people who are interested in being "armed" but uninterested in expending the time, effort and resources to seek competence beyond passing a minimal state-mandated qualification.

[mr.72]

It seems that mouse guns are indeed the everyday "primary carry gun" for a surprising percentage of CHL people, people who, by human nature, would otherwise not carry at all due to discomfort or (often simply perceived) difficulty concealing something larger.

From the feedback received in renewal classes over the years, maybe 50 percent of TX license holders in our area actually carry regularly "on body". And about half of those have decided to "downsize" rather than carry one exclusively in the car - or even worse, not have one with them at all.

Well it would help if I knew what defines a "mouse gun" but anyway...

First of all, some people actually do not consider carrying a gun to be the center about which their life should revolve. When I was 16, my dad bought me a car and suddenly I had to have a car. For the first year or so that I had the car, "having a car" was the focus of my life. I had to learn to drive it, care for it, work on it, pay for gas and insurance, etc. But then after a little while, it was just this thing that I used on a daily basis as a normal part of my life and it was not a focus for me. Then a few years later, I got married... all over again, I have to learn how to live with someone else, how to interact, manage my household, etc. "Being married" was the focus of my life for a while. Then it just became normal everyday life and I didn't give it much thought. Then we had our first child and it was the same thing all over again... by the time my first daughter was two, it was routine.

So for many people that I know, getting a CHL, owning and carrying a gun, are just like this. Suddenly you make this change in your life that, at the time, seems like a real big deal. You have to go to a class, qualify, wait on the plastic, buy a bunch of stuff, practice, learn to maintain the weapon, educate your immediate family and friends, learn to store it safely, figure out how to buy ammo, how often to practice, you know... you have to get on top of this steep learning curve for a few months, maybe a year, maybe longer (I don't know I'm in the middle of it), "CCW" becomes a focal point of your life. But it won't be that way forever. At some point, it will become routine, just like driving a car or being a husband or father or paying your mortgage or whatever other big events in your life you have to make routine.

Now what does this have to do with so-called "mouse guns"?

Well I'm in the middle of this learning curve period. I fully intend for carrying a gun to be a normal part of my routine, and likely my wife, and probably my daughters as each of them become old enough to get a CHL. However, right now it's this difficult pattern of figuring out how this is going to work. I am not going to change my wardrobe, or spend $1K in holsters, or change the way I walk or the type of car I drive or whatever else is already established in my life in order to accommodate carrying. So a small gun that works its way into my lifestyle easier is going to be more likely for me to carry, period. After test-fitting and practicing, it is clear that my Sigma is the absolute biggest thing I could possibly carry and then it is going to be rather uncomfortable and annoying... otherwise see my sig for my potential solutions.

Rather than steadfastly advocating only carrying a large gun, it would be smart for us to advocate the correct training for whatever gun we are going to carrying, and help people find the gun that will work best for them without alteration of the rest of their life. I am trying to convince my wife that she needs her CHL and to carry most of the time but she is majorly hung up on how she is going to conceal it (she has a model's build, 6' 135lb and wears clothes that FIT), and the ONLY choice is going to be something very small like a Kahr PM9 or a Kel-Tec PF9.

I think it's important for any of us who carries to be properly trained and gain experience through practice as to how to use our weapon of choice, whether it's a "mouse gun", a 5" 1911 or a 7" .357mag. It's a responsibility just like you are responsible for learning to safely learn to drive your choice of car, be it a nimble sports car or a lumbering SUV. Unfortunately far too many people neglect learning to drive correctly and that's even something they practice daily... I kind of doubt most of the millions of TX CHL holders are going to commit to more practice or adaptation with their guns than they do with their cars.

[mr surveyor]

VERY WELL SAID!!!

[anygunanywhere]

Right now my only mode of carry is my P3AT in my DeSantis Pocket Nemesis. I sometimes bring along my Kimber to keep next to me in the vehicles. The temporary condition is a small bother.

Normally, when I am sans crutches my P3AT is a BUG. Sundays it goes along with me to church, especially in summer months here on the gulf coast.

In my current condition I do not go to very many places where I afeel I am more succeptible to crime, except for stop-n-robs.


Anygunanywhere

[yerasimos]

Well I'm in the middle of this learning curve period. I fully intend for carrying a gun to be a normal part of my routine, and likely my wife, and probably my daughters as each of them become old enough to get a CHL. However, right now it's this difficult pattern of figuring out how this is going to work. I am not going to change my wardrobe, or spend $1K in holsters, or change the way I walk or the type of car I drive or whatever else is already established in my life in order to accommodate carrying. So a small gun that works its way into my lifestyle easier is going to be more likely for me to carry, period.

Like it or not, going about armed and acquiring the capability to defend oneself has some costs (financial and otherwise) associated with it beyond buying a gun, applying for a state-issued license, and keeping that gun somewhere on your body. I do not believe these costs are frequently assessed completely or realistically sustained, and consequently I believe the actual readiness suffers.

Rather than steadfastly advocating only carrying a large gun, it would be smart for us to advocate the correct training for whatever gun we are going to carrying, and help people find the gun that will work best for them without alteration of the rest of their life. I am trying to convince my wife that she needs her CHL and to carry most of the time but she is majorly hung up on how she is going to conceal it (she has a model's build, 6' 135lb and wears clothes that FIT), and the ONLY choice is going to be something very small like a Kahr PM9 or a Kel-Tec PF9.

We make our choices and sustain the consequences.

I think it's important for any of us who carries to be properly trained and gain experience through practice as to how to use our weapon of choice, whether it's a "mouse gun", a 5" 1911 or a 7" .357mag. It's a responsibility just like you are responsible for learning to safely learn to drive your choice of car, be it a nimble sports car or a lumbering SUV. Unfortunately far too many people neglect learning to drive correctly and that's even something they practice daily... I kind of doubt most of the millions of TX CHL holders are going to commit to more practice or adaptation with their guns than they do with their cars.

These are valid ideas, though we part ways in application. As I see things, it will require more time and effort to learn to draw and shoot a tiny, flyweight mousegun reliably than a 15-25 ounce .38 Special snubnose revolver or mid-sized 9mm pistol that fills the hand more completely. I may be wrong here, but I speculate there is a much larger number of instructors who can provide meaningful instruction on the aforementioned .38 Specials and 9mms (courtesy of competition shooting, law enforcement training and individual motivation and experience) than those who can provide quality instruction specific to mouseguns, where the students' performance matches that of people shooting larger, heavier guns.

Let me make something clear: I do not believe that mouseguns per se are incapable of delivering a terminal hit. Quite the opposite. Rather, it is the interface of mousegun and the user that I find suspect. I believe it may be possible, in theory, to learn to shoot a mousegun approaching the speed and skill of an IPSC grandmaster shooting .38 Super handloads from a compensated 1911---but the time, opportunity and other costs are too prohibitive.

When you desperately need hits on target, it is best to optimize every single variable you can. By virtue of their small size---leaving aside the question of their small caliber---I believe mouseguns generally run counter to such optimization.