But I didn't see it!

[texanjoker]

This is good good for thought for all those that do not properly conceal their weapon. You can call it printing or whatever, but if you are carrying in a posted establishment and somebody calls the cops you are probably going downtown. There are tons of threads on this with the holster exposed, printing, accidental exposures. Keep the guns concealed wherever you are.

[Zoo]

If they don't see your gun, it doesn't matter if you saw their sign.

[Songbird]

The hospital where I had surgery today is one of those places. It's a small surgical hospital, not one of the big ones. There is a completely separate entrance for Pre-Admissions. On that door it has a gun buster sign with the wording "No Weapons". I actually went in the main entrance first yesterday because I didn't know where Pre-Admit was. The main entrance is 30.06 loud and proud on the front door. (I wasn't carrying because I didn't know if Pre-Admit would involve disrobing of any sort and I figured it was posted anyway since it was a hospital). Conceivably a CHL holder could walk right past that gun buster sign if they didn't go to/see the front entrance. Honest mistake. Kinda scary.

[RottenApple]

The hospital where I had surgery today is one of those places. It's a small surgical hospital, not one of the big ones. There is a completely separate entrance for Pre-Admissions. On that door it has a gun buster sign with the wording "No Weapons". I actually went in the main entrance first yesterday because I didn't know where Pre-Admit was. The main entrance is 30.06 loud and proud on the front door. (I wasn't carrying because I didn't know if Pre-Admit would involve disrobing of any sort and I figured it was posted anyway since it was a hospital). Conceivably a CHL holder could walk right past that gun buster sign if they didn't go to/see the front entrance. Honest mistake. Kinda scary.

I did the same thing when my wife had emergency surgery earlier this year. I even stayed in her room overnight. The next day I got up, left through a different entrance and discovered a fully vald 30.06. Would I have been arrested if discovered? Possibly. Would the "I didn't see it" defense work in that case. I dunno. That's what I'm curious about.

So far we seem to have those who think you would just be asked to leave, and those (kind like me) who think you'd be in a pretty pickle and seeing the inside of a jail soon.

[EEllis]

Would the "I didn't see it" defense work in that case. I dunno. That's what I'm curious about.

So far we seem to have those who think you would just be asked to leave, and those (kind like me) who think you'd be in a pretty pickle and seeing the inside of a jail soon.

I think it would depend on the cop but if they arrested you I think it's likely you would either go to trial or have the DA offer a deal and then wait until right before trial to drop charges costing you a craplooad in lawyers fees. If it did go to court I think it would be more you proving you couldn't know that the DA showing you did.

[brhalltx]

and (2) received notice that:

If the sign isn't posted where it can be seen (not on all entrances, inside the building, whatever), and you didn't see it, then you didn't receive notice.

[E.Marquez]

You get a ticket forgoing 70 in a 60 zone because you didn't see the sign will get you off about the same as carrying in a business because you didn't see the sign. I don't think any of you would use the didn't see the sign for speeding but you will for chl. I don't understand the difference.

JUst for sake of discussion..
The difference is significant
On a public roadway, a sign is required to be displayed in a specific manner (hmm, kind a like a 30.06 sign) and as drive you have a responsibility to be on the lookout for that speed limit sign.
If the Speedlimit sign is properly posted and you drive past it while trying to find your jelly doughnut dropped on the floor .. then no, Ithe I did not see it" excuse is not going to be valid.. Of Course.

However.. the speed limit sign that is behind an overgrown bush, tree, newly erected billboard OR the 30.06 sign that is not posted in public view of the common entrance point to a building.. THAT is not valid.... IMHO though IANAL.

Most Leos are reasonable folks and i think that is why there have been no recorded or know arrest and prosecution of 30.06 violators. Add to that DA's do not like to take on cases they are not sure they can win... So if there is a reasonable chance the CHL'er did not see a sign (officer, I entered though this store.. SEE NO SIGN, I walked to that part of the building SEE NO SIGN, I was stopped here by you.. SEE NO SIGN, I did not know there was a sign at the south and east main building entrances.. My car is parked right outside in the west parking lot, just steps from that store entrance....or something like that)
You're going to effective notice at that point and told to be on your way.. yes I know somewhere out there is a LEO or ADA/DA that would cite, charge, arrest and prosecute anyways.. But luckily, so far at least... that does not seem to have happened.

[WinoVeritas]

My major concern is not so much being asked to leave, being arrested or reported, but losing my CHL for what I consider a mental lapse / minor error (not a blatant refusal to obey the 30.06 sign as in a hospital emergency or entering a business thru door with no sign).

As for comparing 30.06 to speed limit signs - I can guarantee "I didn't see" won't fly, at least not for me. I entered a road way above where the speed limit sign was posted (country road isolated 2-lane) and was doing 55 in a 45. I later found the speed sign between where I entered and a major thru-fare. Costly experience, sheriff officer didn't care, county precinct judge didn't care.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Forgive my ignorance, but have there been many instances of police being called for 30.06 violations?

[WinoVeritas]

According to Texas https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/r ... vrates.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; CHL'ers seem to be really good citizens when it comes to obeying the law. I ran the list for 2011 and found only two arrest and no convictions for (and I'm guessing cause the don't say it's 30.06 transgression). I suspect most go unreported unless some one gets belligerent and most all don't get reported because the gun was concealed well. In Federal and Municipal facilities, I expect metal detectors will prevent carry inside if someone has gone momentarily brain dead.

[RottenApple]

I had an interesting experience this morning. I was driving past the Wylie PD and noticed an officer just pulling in. So I pulled in, introduced myself, and asked if he minded if I ask him a few questions related to this subject. He didn't, and so we were off. I asked him about 2 basic scenarios.

1) CHL Holder wants into a store that has a gun buster sign, "no guns" sign, or even no sign at all. The CHL holder's firearm becomes exposed momentarily and someone calls the police. What would you do?

2) CHL holder walks into a store with a valid 30.06 sign but, for whatever reason, doesn't see it. The CHL holder's firearm becomes exposed momentarily and someone calls the police. What would you do?

His answer was the same for both situations:

First, the officer wasn't concerned abut the 30.06 sign in any way shape or form. Valid, invalid, doesn't matter. He said it really isn't an issue to most cops.

Second, the officer didn't really care if the owner/manager asked the CHL holder to leave and s/he refused. The officer just wants everyone to be able to go home safely at the end of the day. So he (the officer) would explain that the owner/manager has requested that s/he (CHL Holder) leave and the officer would escort the CHL holder off the premises.

This (and finally), the officer stated that the only time he (and, in his opinion, most other officers) would actually arrest the CHL holder is if they had a bad attitude, were acting belligerent, or being a nuisance over the whole issue instead of just leaving.

And there we have it. At least from a small town PD officer. I know it's not official, but its kinda cool nonetheless. So stay concealed, be nice, and leave if requested.

[ldj1002]

I agree Mr. RA. My speeding example didn't have much agreement. However we all have saw a lot of stores have a "no shirts, no shoes, no service" sign out. well I pretty sure there is no law against that and certainly no what and how sign should be posted etc. Just the same if a bare backed person came in and manager ask him to leave and he didn't and things get bad and cops are called---well here we go . Who is right, who is wrong, who is going to jail? I think it depends on who is the biggest but. I will not go in a place with a posted no gun sign regardless if I have to hunt for it or not or if it is correct. If I get in a place and find a sign or in other ways I fine the business doesn't want me, I will leave as quietly as I can and hope he doesn't call cops. If you cause a commotion that gets out of hand, regardless who is right or wrong and cops are called and it hits the news.---well that is just what the anti gun gang would jump all over just like Edited for abreviated profanity. Please return to the rules & read #1. G rated forum. Welcome aboard & have a great day.

[longtooth]

Wait there are blind CHL holders?

I did qualify one that was legally blind due to extreeme cataracts. Owned an engineering firm & was being driven to work.
This was a actually an interesting day. He shot the day before so we would know he could do it on Sat. During the practice session I was REAL close to him. He actually did fine.
Did FINE @ 3yds & enough at 7 yds to pass. He said he could see the black on the white (actually a darker gray in the middle of a lighter gray) & shot @ center mass. Back @ 15 it was all grey for him & I told him just make sure you dont shoot over the burm. From there he did better than some that see fine. All in the burm & nothing in the range floor.

A yr later he got the cataracts out & sees pretty good now.

[RottenApple]

I agree Mr. RA. My speeding example didn't have much agreement. However we all have saw a lot of stores have a "no shirts, no shoes, no service" sign out. well I pretty sure there is no law against that and certainly no what and how sign should be posted etc. Just the same if a bare backed person came in and manager ask him to leave and he didn't and things get bad and cops are called---well here we go . Who is right, who is wrong, who is going to jail? I think it depends on who is the biggest but. I will not go in a place with a posted no gun sign regardless if I have to hunt for it or not or if it is correct. If I get in a place and find a sign or in other ways I fine the business doesn't want me, I will leave as quietly as I can and hope he doesn't call cops. If you cause a commotion that gets out of hand, regardless who is right or wrong and cops are called and it hits the news.---well that is just what the anti gun gang would jump all over just like Edited for abreviated profanity. Please return to the rules & read #1. G rated forum. Welcome aboard & have a great day.

Well, here is where we differ. If the no gun sign doesn't meet 30.06 requirements, I'll just walk on in and carry away. Their no gun sign doesn't mean anything to me at all. However, if, in the ourself my business, my firearm is unintentionally displayed ANSI am asked to leave, I'll leave without protest. And if the owner/manager calls the police w/o asking me to leave, and the officers request that I leave, I'll comply then too. No muss, no fuss. But I'll never do business there again, nor will anyone with whom I have any influence. I'll also make sure to post reviews of the business on sites such as yelp, etc (assuming the business is listed there) about the experience and the generally unsafe nature.

As for places that post valid 30.06 signs, I respect the decision they've made, even though I disagree with it, and will comply with their wishes. I'll also choose not to do business there. For instance, Baylor & Presbyterian hospitals (and most clinics) are 30.06 posted. Therefore any doctor I or my family uses is based out of Medical City which doesn't post. Interestingly enough, every doctor I've had since I got my CHL has been a CHL the,selves except one. And that one said her husband carries and has been trying to get her to get a CHL and start carrying. Last time I saw her, she said shed wait for me to become and instructor because she feels comfortable with me! LOL.

[TexasCajun]

For all the attention that this is getting lately, can someone point to an actual arrest and/or conviction under 30.06???

Hey! Go start your own thread!

Seriously though, according to Charles:

I have no personal knowledge of either. According to DPS reports for 2002 through 2006, no CHL has been convicted of violating TPC §30.06. The reports don't show trespass, §46.03, §46.035 and other prohibited locations individually, they are reported collectively as "Places Where Weapons Prohibited."

I have to admit I'm surprised it hasn't happened even once.

Chas.

I'm just interested in what people think of this "defense". And of course I'm interested in the opinions of our resident legal experts.

Sorry. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread. The thought just occurred to me that we might be spending an awful lot of time charging down a rabbit hole for no real good reason.

My suspicion is that even if an LEO showed up because someone was spotted carrying in a properly posted establishment, they'd rather just ask the CHLer to leave vs an actual arrest. That way there's no booking, paperwork, deposition, and/or trial to contend with.