I had to draw last week. Looking for input

[phoneguy]

That open cab just begs for a grenade...

However, I personally would not argue with someone driving a Humvee with what appears to be a twin 40mm Bofors Anti Aircraft gun mounted on it. But then you would not have a hard time proving a threat existed.

All kidding aside, I think the OP did the right thing. The thought of my Harley getting pinned to the guard rail by a car is not a pretty one. And running and the possibly subsequent high speed chase would be the wrong move. A couple of years ago, in my TV days, I covered a wreck on I-37 near the Alamodome. A guy on his brand new bike (his first) lost control at about 65 on the curve just north of Houston St, his head hit the guardrail support and the fire dept had to go down on the street below the elevated highway to look for body parts. No thanks, no high speed chases for me.

[Nintao]

There is another rider on this forum that had an encounter with a person suffering from road rage and domestic argument at the same time. All this rider did was pull up next to him and look around as most people do. I guess the guy in the car didn’t like it. long story short a fight ensued and the biker got a broken collar bone. Even though he had all his riding gear he slipped on some debris on the road and the driver fell over on top him. His shoulder landed on the curb at the wrong angle. Hes fine now and waiting on his CHL to come in. I belive he would have be justified in doing the same as asleepatthereel did in this encounter.

That was me back in Mid November 07! Quick summary: The driver was driving very irradic (a coworker was back a few car lengths) and changed multiple lanes to get into the left turn lane and came within inches of hitting me. I looked over casually without intent on starting something, that is when he mouthed off something and got out and charged me. I got off the bike in time to get tackled. I fought him off, he reconsidered, then jumped back into his truck and took off.

My Motorcycle is my only source of transportation and everyday someone pulls out in front of me, tries to change lanes into me or does something that puts me at a greater risk being on a bike and not in a cage. I have made it a point recently to not let these things upset me (they still do at times) which is hard to do, that way I do not get into a situation that may become escalated. Some situations like yours may just be unavoidable. I know I have chosen to ride off rather than get into a bad situation knowing very soon I will be armed (with a firearm) and things could get ugly. Perhaps I have been training myself to avoid those situations as I know I have something to loose.

I am waiting for my plastic to come in the mail as I type this and I hope I do as great as you did if I ever have to face any type of situation where I might have to draw my firearm! My comendations!

[SlowDave]

I agree that the original poster did the right thing also. Running from a car on a motorcycle is a losing deal, no matter what they show on tv/movies. In a different situation (legally), my college roommate almost killed himself on a motorcycle running from a cop. The likelihood of a crash is extremely high.

My question would be what to do if the assailant continued to approach. I think if you do not shoot before he gets within contact range, you have put yourself in grave danger. However, my difficulty would be that it would be very difficult for me to pull the trigger on someone who is simply approaching me, especially if they are reasonably calm and walking towards me quietly. However, if I wait to see if they're going to assault me, it would be too late. Any thoughts from the group on that topic?

[SlowDave]

Also, I had a similar experience way back in the late 80's. Going south on I-35 from San Antonio to Laredo at night. A small pickup behind me began flashing his brights. I thought maybe something had fallen off of my bike or that he needed some mechanical help or something and started pulling over, with him pulling over behind me. As I came to a near complete stop, something in my head just said "no." It didn't feel right and I thought he'd have to get help from someone else tonight if this was legit. I gassed it and took off... and so did he! He tore out after me and tailgated me flashing his high beams and got within maybe 1' of my rear wheel at 70 mph or so. At that point I sped way up and he stayed with me up to about 100 mph. I had to stay above that to keep him off of my tail. I was SCARED! I didn't like him being behind me and so worked out a plan as I came up on a bus. I let him get closer to me, and as I approached the bus, I whipped over in the right lane behind the bus and nailed the brakes, betting he wouldn't be able to react quickly enough. Sure enough, he went around the bus. I stayed in the right lane, behind the bus and let him go, relieved. Then, the bus started to slow more and more until it got down to about 20 mph. It pulled out into the left lane and there in front of it, with hazards on, was this little p/u truck! I pulled over to the right shoulder and stopped. He stopped about 20 yds in front of me and just sat there. I was scared to death, but finally decided I had to do something, so after sitting there for probably 2 minutes (seemed like forever), I just took off as hard as I could (so that hopefully he couldn't get up to speed and run me over as I came by in the left lane) and he came after me again. I can't remember all the details now, but I remember going the rest of the way to Laredo at 105-110 mph, wishing for a policeman to pull me over but finding none. I pulled off the exit hoping that I was far enough in front of him that he couldn't spot me from the highway and take the same exit. I rode quickly to my sister's house and put the motorcycle out of sight from the street, just in case. She then told me how there had been several shootings of motorcyclists in that area in the past few weeks.

Yeah, you did the right thing.

[Excaliber]

I agree that the original poster did the right thing also. Running from a car on a motorcycle is a losing deal, no matter what they show on tv/movies. In a different situation (legally), my college roommate almost killed himself on a motorcycle running from a cop. The likelihood of a crash is extremely high.

My question would be what to do if the assailant continued to approach. I think if you do not shoot before he gets within contact range, you have put yourself in grave danger. However, my difficulty would be that it would be very difficult for me to pull the trigger on someone who is simply approaching me, especially if they are reasonably calm and walking towards me quietly. However, if I wait to see if they're going to assault me, it would be too late. Any thoughts from the group on that topic?

Here are a few possibilities to think about. The way the situation unfolds will determine whether or not they are possible or appropriate:

1. Verbal challenge: "That's close enough. Stop there and state your business." Most folks will stop and say something that will clarify their intentions at this point. Failure to stop would support an interpretation of aggressive intent. If this happens, a second verbal challenge can be used: "Do not come closer. If you do, you'll be treated as a threat to my safety." That's pretty explicit. Anyone who approaches anyway almost certainly has aggressive intent. Your challenge here will be to determine the level of threat and the appropriate response.

2. Improve tactical positioning: Staying on the motorcycle while being approached gives you little flexibility of movement. If the subject gets close, your defensive options would be few. If it looks like he intends to get within contact distance or like he is positioning himself for a weapon attack, dismounting and keeping the motorcycle between you and the subject and/or moving to a position of better cover (behind a tree / light pole / another vehicle, etc.) gives you more options and the subject another opportunity to communicate his intent by his actions. It also demonstrates an intent to deescalate and withdraw on your part. If he pursues you, the subject would be further demonstrating aggressive intent.

3. Take out your cellphone and call 911. Report the situation and the tag number of the subject's vehicle, state that you fear you are about to be attacked, and request police response. Advise the subject that police have been called and are responding. Tell him to either maintain his distance and wait for them, or get back in his vehicle and leave.

[kw5kw]

Here are a few possibilities to think about. The way the situation unfolds will determine whether or not they are possible or appropriate:

1. Verbal challenge: "That's close enough. Stop there and state your business." Most folks will stop and say something that will clarify their intentions at this point. Failure to stop would support an interpretation of aggressive intent. If this happens, a second verbal challenge can be used: "Do not come closer. If you do, you'll be treated as a threat to my safety." That's pretty explicit. Anyone who approaches anyway almost certainly has aggressive intent. Your challenge here will be to determine the level of threat and the appropriate response.

2. Improve tactical positioning: Staying on the motorcycle while being approached gives you little flexibility of movement. If the subject gets close, your defensive options would be few. If it looks like he intends to get within contact distance or like he is positioning himself for a weapon attack, dismounting and keeping the motorcycle between you and the subject and/or moving to a position of better cover (behind a tree / light pole / another vehicle, etc.) gives you more options and the subject another opportunity to communicate his intent by his actions. It also demonstrates an intent to deescalate and withdraw on your part. If he pursues you, the subject would be further demonstrating aggressive intent.

3. Take out your cellphone and call 911. Report the situation and the tag number of the subject's vehicle, state that you fear you are about to be attacked, and request police response. Advise the subject that police have been called and are responding. Tell him to either maintain his distance and wait for them, or get back in his vehicle and leave.

That all takes one thing that asleep didn't have -- time; especially #3.

From the distances that have been described asleep only had between .75 and 1.5 seconds to act.

I feel that asleep reacted appropriately.

[Excaliber]

Here are a few possibilities to think about. The way the situation unfolds will determine whether or not they are possible or appropriate:

1. Verbal challenge: "That's close enough. Stop there and state your business." Most folks will stop and say something that will clarify their intentions at this point. Failure to stop would support an interpretation of aggressive intent. If this happens, a second verbal challenge can be used: "Do not come closer. If you do, you'll be treated as a threat to my safety." That's pretty explicit. Anyone who approaches anyway almost certainly has aggressive intent. Your challenge here will be to determine the level of threat and the appropriate response.

2. Improve tactical positioning: Staying on the motorcycle while being approached gives you little flexibility of movement. If the subject gets close, your defensive options would be few. If it looks like he intends to get within contact distance or like he is positioning himself for a weapon attack, dismounting and keeping the motorcycle between you and the subject and/or moving to a position of better cover (behind a tree / light pole / another vehicle, etc.) gives you more options and the subject another opportunity to communicate his intent by his actions. It also demonstrates an intent to deescalate and withdraw on your part. If he pursues you, the subject would be further demonstrating aggressive intent.

3. Take out your cellphone and call 911. Report the situation and the tag number of the subject's vehicle, state that you fear you are about to be attacked, and request police response. Advise the subject that police have been called and are responding. Tell him to either maintain his distance and wait for them, or get back in his vehicle and leave.

That all takes one thing that asleep didn't have -- time; especially #3.

From the distances that have been described asleep only had between .75 and 1.5 seconds to act.

I feel that asleep reacted appropriately.

Russ:

I agree that the OP did the right thing, as I noted in my October 22 post where I stated that asleepatthereel took the best course of action available to him under the circumstances.

My post today was prepared in response to SlowDave's question (which I quoted and highlighted in red) about what other options might be available under similar circumstances. These are things to consider for your "mental library" of possible tactics, not a step by step plan for handling all such incidents. In my post I pointed out that some or all may not be appropriate or even possible, depending on the circumstances and event sequences in a given situation.

Only the OP could tell us if options 1 and 2 were viable in his case. If they were, the available time frame would have been extremely short as you pointed out, and he would have had to execute them immediately and forcefully as the subject stepped from his vehicle. This would only be possible if he had already stored these in his "mental library" so they were immediately accessible when needed. In the best case, they may have changed the dynamics of the incident enough to make drawing a handgun unnecessary, but we'll never know for sure because that exact situation will never recur again.

From the circumstances he described, I agree that Option 3 was most likely not possible. It might come into play in a situation where a verbal challenge temporarily stopped a subject's advance, but he had not clearly disengaged and there was no exit route available for the good guy.

[ddcarter3]

Asleep,
Man you would get my vote if I was on a jury!
You did everything I hope I would do. As far as I am concerned, the other guy is lucky not to have lead poisoning!!
If Asleep was not justified in that situation, then what good is the plastic??
Thank God you did not have to shoot! Thank God you were prepared to defend you life!

Just another armed Texan,
David

[kd5zex]

Asleep,

Way to go, first and foremost I am thankful things worked out in your favor. You did the right thing, no question in my mind what so ever. Furthermore, I am thankful there is another person roaming the Texas roads who has been "awakened". I'll bet looking down the business end of a Kimber was one of the last things he expected. Consider this for a moment; you may have changed the persons life for the better and improved the lives many others as well. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

After over 10 years of cages I recently started riding again, I somewhat forgot how vulnerable you are whilst riding. I feel slightly safer knowing I can out accelerate/decelerate/maneuver the cages but you really are out there in the open. On a bike, every inattentive / hostile cage or road anomaly is potentially your demise unless you are 100% focused on the task at hand. A cage forcing you to the curb is most certainly a hostile action in and of itself much less exiting the vehicle.

In Asleep's situation evasive maneuvers would have probably been my first instinct, but this likely due to being under 30 <jest>and having a bike that runs all the time</jest>.

P.S. The diagram cracked me up!

[asleepatthereel]

Here are a few possibilities to think about. The way the situation unfolds will determine whether or not they are possible or appropriate:

1. Verbal challenge: "That's close enough. Stop there and state your business." Most folks will stop and say something that will clarify their intentions at this point. Failure to stop would support an interpretation of aggressive intent. If this happens, a second verbal challenge can be used: "Do not come closer. If you do, you'll be treated as a threat to my safety." That's pretty explicit. Anyone who approaches anyway almost certainly has aggressive intent. Your challenge here will be to determine the level of threat and the appropriate response.

2. Improve tactical positioning: Staying on the motorcycle while being approached gives you little flexibility of movement. If the subject gets close, your defensive options would be few. If it looks like he intends to get within contact distance or like he is positioning himself for a weapon attack, dismounting and keeping the motorcycle between you and the subject and/or moving to a position of better cover (behind a tree / light pole / another vehicle, etc.) gives you more options and the subject another opportunity to communicate his intent by his actions. It also demonstrates an intent to deescalate and withdraw on your part. If he pursues you, the subject would be further demonstrating aggressive intent.

3. Take out your cellphone and call 911. Report the situation and the tag number of the subject's vehicle, state that you fear you are about to be attacked, and request police response. Advise the subject that police have been called and are responding. Tell him to either maintain his distance and wait for them, or get back in his vehicle and leave.

That all takes one thing that asleep didn't have -- time; especially #3.

From the distances that have been described asleep only had between .75 and 1.5 seconds to act.

I feel that asleep reacted appropriately.

I had a pretty good tactical position, having his vehicle between the two of us, I could have dropped the bike, and got lower if he had a weapon. The way we were stopped, I could see his hands inside when the dome light came on. He never advanced any further than exiting his vehicle. I dont know know if it was because I told him to stop, or because he was looking at the business end of a .45. I tend to think it was the latter. The whole cell phone thing thing doesnt make any sense. Im not gonna call 911 while I am being ran off the road in a car, much less on a motorcycle. I didnt get the plate number because he was behind me most of the time, and took off pretty quickly. I wasnt about to chase him down for a plate number. Im glad I didnt have to shoot, and even more glad he didnt try to do a pitt on me and crash me. I think it turned out as good as it could have. Hopefully he learned something that night. I know I did. I learned that practice is not wasted time.

[Excaliber]

Here are a few possibilities to think about. The way the situation unfolds will determine whether or not they are possible or appropriate:

1. Verbal challenge: "That's close enough. Stop there and state your business." Most folks will stop and say something that will clarify their intentions at this point. Failure to stop would support an interpretation of aggressive intent. If this happens, a second verbal challenge can be used: "Do not come closer. If you do, you'll be treated as a threat to my safety." That's pretty explicit. Anyone who approaches anyway almost certainly has aggressive intent. Your challenge here will be to determine the level of threat and the appropriate response.

2. Improve tactical positioning: Staying on the motorcycle while being approached gives you little flexibility of movement. If the subject gets close, your defensive options would be few. If it looks like he intends to get within contact distance or like he is positioning himself for a weapon attack, dismounting and keeping the motorcycle between you and the subject and/or moving to a position of better cover (behind a tree / light pole / another vehicle, etc.) gives you more options and the subject another opportunity to communicate his intent by his actions. It also demonstrates an intent to deescalate and withdraw on your part. If he pursues you, the subject would be further demonstrating aggressive intent.

3. Take out your cellphone and call 911. Report the situation and the tag number of the subject's vehicle, state that you fear you are about to be attacked, and request police response. Advise the subject that police have been called and are responding. Tell him to either maintain his distance and wait for them, or get back in his vehicle and leave.

That all takes one thing that asleep didn't have -- time; especially #3.

From the distances that have been described asleep only had between .75 and 1.5 seconds to act.

I feel that asleep reacted appropriately.

I had a pretty good tactical position, having his vehicle between the two of us, I could have dropped the bike, and got lower if he had a weapon. The way we were stopped, I could see his hands inside when the dome light came on. He never advanced any further than exiting his vehicle. I dont know know if it was because I told him to stop, or because he was looking at the business end of a .45. I tend to think it was the latter. The whole cell phone thing thing doesnt make any sense. Im not gonna call 911 while I am being ran off the road in a car, much less on a motorcycle. I didnt get the plate number because he was behind me most of the time, and took off pretty quickly. I wasnt about to chase him down for a plate number. Im glad I didnt have to shoot, and even more glad he didnt try to do a pitt on me and crash me. I think it turned out as good as it could have. Hopefully he learned something that night. I know I did. I learned that practice is not wasted time.

Asleep:

You don't need to redefend your actions.

The options I outlined in the quote you cited were a response to SlowDave's request for additional tactics that might be used in situations like this. They were absolutely not a criticism of your actions in the specific circumstance you described, and in my October 22 post I specifically stated that I thought you executed the best options available under the circumstances you faced. The only thing I thought you could have improved would have been to capture the tag number of the aggressor.

In my post I also specifically stated that not all of the additional options I suggested would be either appropriate or possible in all circumstances. They were merely things to consider and to use if they fit a future situation.

In the very short time frame of your encounter, clearly there was no opportunity to use a cellphone. However, you will never see that exact set of circumstances again, even if you are unlucky enough to encounter multiple incidents of this type. You may at some time face a potential assailant who approaches you, stops at your challenge, but continues to hurl obscenities and exhibit preattack body postures and presents you with a prolonged situation where he will not withdraw and you cannot readily escape. You may also face a situation where there are additional people in the subject's vehicle, and they may emerge and escalate the situation at any time. If I were you, I would not write off the cell phone option as something that should never be considered. The "army of 1" approach will only take you so far. LEO's routinely call for backup, and so should you. Also establishing yourself as the complainant at the earliest possible moment is a very strong legal defense plus if you end up having to use deadly force.

[asleepatthereel]

No offense taken. Just trying to clarify things. Im open to any and all advise. The thing I was trying to clarify was that it would have been next to impossible to make a phone call while being ran off the road on a motorcycle.

Sorry if it sounded differently.

[KBCraig]

No offense taken. Just trying to clarify things. Im open to any and all advise. The thing I was trying to clarify was that it would have been next to impossible to make a phone call while being ran off the road on a motorcycle.

And, once you've been forced to a stop in the way you were, it's just about impossible to safely get off the bike. Hands full of gun = no hands to help swing off the bike. Plus, you'd have been going to your right, which means dumping the bike on the ground.

The idea of dancing clear of 700 pounds of hot falling metal, jumping over a curb onto uneven ground, while simultaneously trying to assess and evaluate a possibly deadly threat, just isn't something I would relish.

[Excaliber]

No offense taken. Just trying to clarify things. Im open to any and all advise. The thing I was trying to clarify was that it would have been next to impossible to make a phone call while being ran off the road on a motorcycle.

And, once you've been forced to a stop in the way you were, it's just about impossible to safely get off the bike. Hands full of gun = no hands to help swing off the bike. Plus, you'd have been going to your right, which means dumping the bike on the ground.

The idea of dancing clear of 700 pounds of hot falling metal, jumping over a curb onto uneven ground, while simultaneously trying to assess and evaluate a possibly deadly threat, just isn't something I would relish.

Staying on the bike worked fine for Asleep because his antagonist deescalated and left the scene. However, if the aggressor had continued to advance, the tactical rigidity you advocate would have left him sitting there with a gun in his hand facing an apparently unarmed man coming at him in a way that suggested he intended to use force but without indication that he presented a deadly threat. Consider that the aggressor isn't stupid and doesn't make a final approach from the side, but takes advantage of the positional limitations being on the bike presents and makes his final approach to contact distance directly from the rear. That's just a dandy position to be in unless you're a champion Twister player. Would you suggest a rider in this situation should open fire on the aggressor or just take a beating while sitting on the bike he refuses to dismount from?

Modern survival instructors who are familiar with the best research on the physiological and psychological effects of stress teach that having a preidentified set of responses to different threat circumstances is one of the best ways to keep the heart rate within the optimal performance range of 115 to 145 beats per minute, reduce response time and act quickly and effectively to deal with the threat.

I've only been in a few thousand tactical situations with real bad guys and don't claim to have all the answers, but some folks who took some of my suggestions in the past are alive because they used them and are pretty happy about that. I posted the additional response options I could see in the only post that tried to answer SlowDave's request for this information in the hope that they may be useful to some of our members. If any or all of them don't work for you in a particular case, I would recommend that you not use them.

If you think my ideas are dumb and one rigid set of responses will do ya for all circumstances, simply disregard them entirely. Some folks look forward to the thrill of trying to make up better ones in the heat of a life threatening situation that differs from the only one they've prepared for when the adrenaline dumps into their systems, their heart rate goes through the roof, and their cognitive processing ability drops into slow low gear. I don't doubt for a minute that's a pretty exciting place to be in.

[casingpoint]

Maybe the guy wanted your bike. A motorcyclejacking. Use of deadly force is justified.