So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dallas)

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jmra
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#46

Post by jmra »

AFAmmo wrote:Talltex, yes we Border Patrol Agents are rough on vehicles. We use them to climb up and down mountains every day. I would like to see how well your pickup truck would hold up under the same type of use. I do not know any agents who are “jumping ditches and running over everything in sight.” The places that we are required go to do our jobs do not have paved or even smooth roads. I have friends that have been seriously injured attempting to navigate rough terrain requiring them to do months of physical therapy to get back in uniform. It’s part of the job, and we accept the risk to do the best that we can to protect the borders.
Thank you for your service. My nephew is a BP agent. He drives his truck as far as he can but most of miles he covers everyday is only accessible on foot.
I think most people think of guys at checkpoints when they think BP agents. If they only knew what many of you do for us on a daily basis. Now, if we could get you guys a president who would actually let you do your job...
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Dadtodabone
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#47

Post by Dadtodabone »

:iagree:
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JSThane
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#48

Post by JSThane »

The undercarriage/suspension/frame damage is usually, as has been stated, from -extremely- rough dirt roads. The desert mountains are extremely rough on the roads, which cannot be paved. What land along the border that isn't private property, along with the property rights that follow, is either "owned" by the Bureau of Land Management or the Forest Service (national parks and the like, see south-eastern Arizona), who usually won't permit so much as a road grader or front-loader to fill in the washouts, much less install improved dirt roads or (gasp!) pavement. I've seen some really weird things happen to trucks, to include a drive shaft falling out of an F250, as the bolts and mounts securing it rattled out (was "manufacturer error," as they weren't torqued -quite- enough; had it been a pavement-only or a dirt-seldom vehicle, it never would have happened, but the rough roads that are a daily condition of the Border Patrol sort of point out "little things" like this).

The "entire lower half" of the bumpers being missing on Tahoes, Suburbans, and Chevy pickups is because it's cut off. Chevy puts plastic bumper covers on their vehicles, which often get cut/slashed/cracked/torn on the rough terrain. Removing the lower half of these prevents most of the damage, and allows a greater "angle of attack" for the front tires when going through the bad roads.
The rest of the bumper damage, as well as the body panel dents and dings, is often from brush: mesquite, creosote, and the like. As the roads cannot be graded or improved, the desert scrub is free to grow into them. The only way to "cut it back" is often to run it over or sideswipe it, just to get past. Driving around is often not an option. The ranchers, landowners, BLM, and USFS throw an incredible fit if they find that "vehicles have deviated from established roads" and fine the Border Patrol tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. So rocks, brush, and other obstacles either have to be driven over, or moved by hand, not an option when dealing with large rocks.

The interiors get trashed from normal use, and yes, sometimes from abuse. The seats get torn from duty belts and other gear, rubbing along the seat covers. Plastic trim gets sunbaked, cracks from vibration, and falls off/out. Dash displays get busted from bouncing around. Sometimes items which cannot be secured, as there is no "mount" for it, goes flying, and hits stuff (agents included). Often, things that break, but are still attached in some way, and are not essential to the operation of the vehicle, get ripped out and thrown away, to stop them rattling/getting in the way/landing in the agent's lap. With all of this, sometimes you do find intentional damage, as there's a "why not, it's trashed already" attitude. Most of the time, though, the intentional damage happens -after- the interior is already "damaged beyond retail value."

All of this doesn't include damage that can happen from "unusual" incidents; deer/vehicle collisions are not uncommon. Neither are cow/vehicle collisions; here in New Mexico, there are some highways that are open-range, and the cows are free to stand in the road whenever they want. It might seem a simple thing to dodge them; it's not, when it's 12:30 AM, out in the middle of nowhere, and the cows are jet black, with so much dirt and grime in their coats they're literally invisible until they look at you and the reflections from their eyes become visible. Often they only look at your car when it's already too late to dodge or slow down.

None of this is reason for APCs or other similar vehicle types being purchased by law enforcement agencies, who frankly don't need "battle wagons" except in extreme, rare, circumstances. Rather, it's an attempt to explain the damage and destruction dealt to some vehicles seen at auction, and is therefore a diversion from the real topic. :biggrinjester: Frankly, I wouldn't -want- those armored tin cans out in rough terrain; getting one of -those- unstuck from mud, or a high-center on a boulder, would require some serious equipment, and not just a tow-strap or a chain!

talltex
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#49

Post by talltex »

AFAmmo wrote:Talltex, yes we Border Patrol Agents are rough on vehicles. We use them to climb up and down mountains every day. I would like to see how well your pickup truck would hold up under the same type of use. I do not know any agents who are “jumping ditches and running over everything in sight.” The places that we are required go to do our jobs do not have paved or even smooth roads. I have friends that have been seriously injured attempting to navigate rough terrain requiring them to do months of physical therapy to get back in uniform. It’s part of the job, and we accept the risk to do the best that we can to protect the borders.
I spent alot of time in the Big Bend years ago and am familiar with the rough rocky country in that particular area and I imagine the roads ( or lack of them) is pretty much the same nowdays as then. My grandfather worked out of the Marfa district back in the 60's and retired from service in 1970. At that time he drove one of the older small Ford Broncos. They also did a lot of work horseback and on foot. I hunted down there for a number of years also, and my trucks held up just fine...I suspect there's a couple of reasons... #1: it was MY truck and I paid for it, and #2: we didn't try to climb up and down steep rocky slopes or over exceptionally rough terrain in them...we drove where it was feasible to do so safely, then got out and hoofed it. I'm not trying to insult the current agents, but just because an agent is issued a vehicle doesn't mean it was intended to be driven everywhere without regard for the terrain or consequences. If honest, I think we all recognize that the fact it's a "government vehicle" plays a large role in the way it's treated.
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jmra
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#50

Post by jmra »

talltex wrote:
AFAmmo wrote:Talltex, yes we Border Patrol Agents are rough on vehicles. We use them to climb up and down mountains every day. I would like to see how well your pickup truck would hold up under the same type of use. I do not know any agents who are “jumping ditches and running over everything in sight.” The places that we are required go to do our jobs do not have paved or even smooth roads. I have friends that have been seriously injured attempting to navigate rough terrain requiring them to do months of physical therapy to get back in uniform. It’s part of the job, and we accept the risk to do the best that we can to protect the borders.
I spent alot of time in the Big Bend years ago and am familiar with the rough rocky country in that particular area and I imagine the roads ( or lack of them) is pretty much the same nowdays as then. My grandfather worked out of the Marfa district back in the 60's and retired from service in 1970. At that time he drove one of the older small Ford Broncos. They also did a lot of work horseback and on foot. I hunted down there for a number of years also, and my trucks held up just fine...I suspect there's a couple of reasons... #1: it was MY truck and I paid for it, and #2: we didn't try to climb up and down steep rocky slopes or over exceptionally rough terrain in them...we drove where it was feasible to do so safely, then got out and hoofed it. I'm not trying to insult the current agents, but just because an agent is issued a vehicle doesn't mean it was intended to be driven everywhere without regard for the terrain or consequences. If honest, I think we all recognize that the fact it's a "government vehicle" plays a large role in the way it's treated.
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JSThane
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#51

Post by JSThane »

talltex wrote:If honest, I think we all recognize that the fact it's a "government vehicle" plays a large role in the way it's treated.
Yeah, this is a factor. So is "this is what this truck was bought for," even if it's not quite what the manufacturer intended when it was built. Most "off-road" vehicles were intended for up to 10% actual "off-road" use. Border Patrol's vehicles usually see somewhere between 40% to 70% of their miles on dirt and rock instead of concrete and tarmac, in the normal course of their duties.

Understand that sometimes you have ten miles, fifteen miles, or more, between "good" roads, even "good" dirt roads, places where one can "easily" get into and out of. There usually are more dirt roads and jeep trails past these "good" points, but they more often than not resemble in places things the Mars Rover would be expected to traverse.

And unlike hunters, Border Patrol doesn't really have any option other than to follow when the "game" moves into terrain too rough for any normally sane driver to go. Moving in on foot isn't always an option; the illegals can walk/run just as fast as the agents, and sometimes faster (as with marijuana smugglers backpacking their wares through the boonies).

So, yeah, they get torn up because it's a government vehicle, and the government bought them to be used in a job and terrain that eats vehicles in two to three years of use. Most of the body/frame/suspension/power train damage comes from just this. As for the rest of it, without trying to excuse wanton damage, is it any wonder the agents don't really care that much about it, seeing the vehicles were fairly specifically bought for a terrain and function that destroys the vehicle anyway?

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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#52

Post by EEllis »

G26ster wrote:
I mentioned that the DHS "oversees" agencies. So the uniformed agencies you list no longer mark their vehicles with the name of the specific agency, and just say DHS Police/Rescue?

I think it may have more to do with what they are doing than who they are but at times you might find agents from those agencies using Homeland security marked vehicles especially when it's for training or a "task force" composed of multiple agencies.
ImageICE Homeland Security Investigations (HSI) special agents participate in a rigorous training exercise utilizing armored vehicles designated for Special Response Teams. Exercises like this one prepare special agents for national security events.

While it may be bull this is one of the organizations that handle the investigations into possible terrorism in the US. If it involves foreign nationals it would make some sense for them to be the lead agency. Now what the heck they need it in dallas for I don't know. An article written by Business Insider is excerpted as follows:
The Department of Homeland Security is using 16 military-style, mine-resistant ambush protected vehicles for use during “high-risk warrants,” according to an official spokesman…

The MRAPs were transferred to DHS from the Department of Defense, free of charge…

The vehicles are modified for use with the DHS Special Response Team — specially trained, fully armored agents dispatched during the most severe and high risk situations…

“[The vehicle] is used in the execution of high-risk warrants — including drug trafficking, smuggling, and contraband,” “We have 16 MRAPs nationwide.”

source:
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland ... rap-2013-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here we have a vid of the vehicle
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And just for those who are wondering they didn't buy these vehicles. They are part of a batch that the Marine corps bought for Iraq and are no longer needed and were given to the DHS for no cost.
Last edited by EEllis on Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AFAmmo
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#53

Post by AFAmmo »

JSThane, you stated the case much better than me.

I agree that the MRAPs would be a lousy choice for 95% of the work that we do. They are too big and heavy to climb through the mountains, and too slow to catch vehicles on the highway. The only time in my career that we have used a similar vehicle was when we were called upon to help restore order at a federal prison when the inmates rioted.
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Re: So... anyone seen these guys rolling around town? (Dalla

#54

Post by sjfcontrol »

Thought this article was interesting...

http://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/homelan ... z2Qk0PcKlt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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