92fs vs 1911

[Trope]

My brother in law has a 92, and I've shot it on several occasions. I like it fine, but it didn't really move me to get one.

Then one day, I decided to rent a 1911 to see what the fuss was about (it happened to be a Kimber 5", fwiw). It only took a few rounds to realize that I REALLY liked the trigger. Now I have to get one. I've been saving my money and considering options ever since that day.

[G.C.Montgomery]

I want to demote my p32 to BUG but I can't decide between a single stack para ordinance 1911 or the 92fs. I am also open to suggestions. I would like stainless though.

I'd say if you've got the cheddar, every man should have at least one copy of each. Both will work just fine.

The Beretta is a bit clunky given what it is...there are slimmer, lighter, higher capacity packages on the market as full-size 9mm service pistols go. If you go with the 92...Try to find a Brigadier model with reinforced locking areas. Other options I'd strongly suggest ahead of the 92 are the Browning/FN Hi-Power, Glock 17, S&W M&P, or Sig 226 for example. Now, a cheaper alternative that holds up and works well in my experience is the CZ-75.

On 1911's, I've been burned twice by Para Ordnance and will not recommend them. IF you decide to go with the Para, stick to a traditional trigger system rather than their fragile LDA system. Outside of that, I'd also suggest looking into Taurus' new 1911 offering if you want to keep costs down.

[WildBill]

G.C. -
I looked at a Para-Ordnance with a LDA trigger this weekend. It felt very light and smooth to me. What do you mean by fragile? What kind of problems did you have?

[badkarma56]

I've got a 16 year-old 92FS (Desert Storm model, with commemorative engraving on the slide) that I absolutely love. It's always been problem free, and I recently used her to score a perfect 250 on my CHL proficiency test.

Like many dudes, I've always considered the 1911 pistol to be a work of art and a piece of history. Their limited mag capacity aside (8+1, in most models), these are truly works of art. However, I've heard about so many different reliability issues with the 1911 design that I'm frankly scared to buy one. These issues don't surprise me at all, given that the design is 100 years old...John Moses Browning, god rest his soul! Accordingly, when I recently decided to buy a .45 caliber pistol, I decided to go with a more modern design, ergo the H&K USP45.

The USP45 a lightweight polymer-framed pistol, with a 12+1 mag capacity. I've already got a USP Compact/9mm which I intend to use for carry purposes once DPS sends me my plastic , and I enjoy the fit/finish/quality of the pistol. I've put 1000 rounds through the Compact (500 of which were +P NATO-spec rounds) in the past month, and I can safely say that it is an excellent weapon (no FTE's/FTF's whatsoever).

I still admire 1911's, and will probably buy one eventually. It appears that a good entry-level model would be the Taurus 1911, which my gun shop (Bud's Gun Shop out of Paris, KY) has on sale for $479 at the moment. If I were starting out with 1911's, that's probably where I'd begin.

*Link-a-roo http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/17285

-BK

[rm9792]

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How many rounds did yours hold, Beretta's website says 10 but I thought the little label at the store said 14.

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My 92's hold 17 in 9mm.

[flintknapper]

G.C. -
I looked at a Para-Ordnance with a LDA trigger this weekend. It felt very light and smooth to me. What do you mean by fragile? What kind of problems did you have?

They are just fine IMO.

Some of the early models (remember they came out in 1999) had a weak "straddle". This was quickly remedied and is no longer a problem.

Some owners... (God only knows why), would thumb back the hammer without depressing the grip safety and bend or break a small spring (even though the manual warns against doing this).

If you look at the draw bar of the weapon (during cleaning), you will notice it is a stamped metal piece. Some folks get the vapors because it doesn't look like it belongs on a locomotive. For the job it has to perform...it is plenty adequate.

I researched the LDA system to death...before purchasing a carry pistol for my only child. I did not find anything that scared me off, so we got her a Para Carry 9.

I did find Todd Jarrett shooting tens of thousands of rounds per year with the same LDA trigger system...and an account of Walt Rausch (and helpers) putting 9,600 rounds through one (in just hours) with no malfuncions/problems.

If you need to break a bead on a tire....then don't use the LDA's trigger parts to do it, if you just need to shoot the weapon it will do fine.

[G.C.Montgomery]

G.C. -
I looked at a Para-Ordnance with a LDA trigger this weekend. It felt very light and smooth to me. What do you mean by fragile? What kind of problems did you have?

I cracked two ParaOrd slides back in 1998. Of course, the problem could very well have been improperly fit barrels. However, both guns were factory built P13-45’s and neither had been subjected to unusually heavy loads.

Years later the LDA came along. It seemed like a neat idea but then I thought better of it after shooting it. I broke one of the very first LDA's I ever handled. I’d caught what amounted to a false reset in the trigger and the drawbar itself failed when I pulled the trigger. After that I started looking into the design and was completely turned off.

One of the great attributes of the 1911 is the simplicity of it’s trigger system. It would be kind to say the LDA’s trigger system reminds my of a Rube Goldberg mouse trap when compared to a traditional 1911 design. My biggest issue with Para’s LDA trigger is the fact that it depends on two coil-type torsion springs not found in normal 1911’s that are necessarily small because of the limited space available in the 1911 frame. If either spring fails, the pistol becomes a paperweight. The sear spring in the LDA is a fairly funky affair too that involves a third coil spring but at least it’s a compression spring that isn’t as prone to failure as the torsion springs mentioned earlier.

If the LDA is your think, have at it. I love my 1911s but I prefer them with traditional, single-action triggers. If I had to have a “double-action� or self-decocking pistol, I can think of at least three other guns I’d rather have than the afterthought ParaOrd decided to shove into a cramped space for which it was never intended.

[flintknapper]

G.C. -
I looked at a Para-Ordnance with a LDA trigger this weekend. It felt very light and smooth to me. What do you mean by fragile? What kind of problems did you have?

I cracked two ParaOrd slides back in 1998. Of course, the problem could very well have been improperly fit barrels. However, both guns were factory built P13-45’s and neither had been subjected to unusually heavy loads.

Years later the LDA came along. It seemed like a neat idea but then I thought better of it after shooting it. I broke one of the very first LDA's I ever handled. I’d caught what amounted to a false reset in the trigger and the drawbar itself failed when I pulled the trigger. After that I started looking into the design and was completely turned off.

What did "Para" say about these failures?

Where did the slides crack on the P-13's? I have a 1996 vintage with untold thousands of rounds through it with no problems (stainless).

In what fashion did the drawbar on the LDA fail, what do you think caused the "reset" problem and most importantly... what did "Para" say/do about it?

[G.C.Montgomery]

What did "Para" say about these failures?

Where did the slides crack on the P-13's? I have a 1996 vintage with untold thousands of rounds through it with no problems (stainless).

In what fashion did the drawbar on the LDA fail, what do you think caused the "reset" problem and most importantly... what did "Para" say/do about it?

I did not own the LDA that I broke. The owner said Para replaced the part under warranty. The owner's confidence however was broken and he promptly sold the pistol once he got it back. So, I have no idea what has happened with that gun since then.

At the time of that incident, I'd heard of problems with the straddle breaking and I wondered if that might have been the cause of the "false reset" I'd felt but it was not. After examing other DAO pistols, including a half-dozen other LDA's, what I found is that most DAO pistol trigger systems have a point at which the resistance felt by the shooter during the return stroke changes as the trigger returns to the ready position. For lack of a better way to put it, the trigger “clicks� twice to reset. Having never felt such a thing, I thought, incorrectly, I’d caught the link and prematurely pressed the trigger at a point where the drawbar could not move forward. Para did say the drawbar normally should not have broken under those circumstances but this one did.

As for the P13’s…Both were “blued� guns. The slides both cracked starting at the corner just ahead of the breech face on the left side of the ejection port. The cracks extended about 1/16th inch toward the left slide rail. The first slide cracked at 1500 rounds, I don’t think I’d owned it more than a month when this happened. The second gun was a warranty replacement for the first and exhibited the same symptoms at about 4000 rounds. After the second slide cracked, Para said I was shooting improperly loaded ammunition and that I’d voided the warranty by doing so. This was utter crap since at the time, I hadn’t started reloading yet and was only shooting factory ammo from Winchester and Federal. It wasn’t worth my time to fight over the warranty. So, I bought a Caspian slide, had it fitted and put 5,000 rounds through the gun before selling it a year later.

[flintknapper]

What did "Para" say about these failures?

Where did the slides crack on the P-13's? I have a 1996 vintage with untold thousands of rounds through it with no problems (stainless).

In what fashion did the drawbar on the LDA fail, what do you think caused the "reset" problem and most importantly... what did "Para" say/do about it?

I did not own the LDA that I broke. The owner said Para replaced the part under warranty. The owner's confidence however was broken and he promptly sold the pistol once he got it back. So, I have no idea what has happened with that gun since then.

At the time of that incident, I'd heard of problems with the straddle breaking and I wondered if that might have been the cause of the "false reset" I'd felt but it was not. After examing other DAO pistols, including a half-dozen other LDA's, what I found is that most DAO pistol trigger systems have a point at which the resistance felt by the shooter during the return stroke changes as the trigger returns to the ready position. For lack of a better way to put it, the trigger “clicks� twice to reset. Having never felt such a thing, I thought, incorrectly, I’d caught the link and prematurely pressed the trigger at a point where the drawbar could not move forward. Para did say the drawbar normally should not have broken under those circumstances but this one did.
As for the P13’s…Both were “blued� guns. The slides both cracked starting at the corner just ahead of the breech face on the left side of the ejection port. The cracks extended about 1/16th inch toward the left slide rail. The first slide cracked at 1500 rounds, I don’t think I’d owned it more than a month when this happened. The second gun was a warranty replacement for the first and exhibited the same symptoms at about 4000 rounds. After the second slide cracked, Para said I was shooting improperly loaded ammunition and that I’d voided the warranty by doing so. This was utter crap since at the time, I hadn’t started reloading yet and was only shooting factory ammo from Winchester and Federal. It wasn’t worth my time to fight over the warranty. So, I bought a Caspian slide, had it fitted and put 5,000 rounds through the gun before selling it a year later.

Thanks for the info G.C.

I have read of two other accounts of early LDA's "locking up" when short stroked...but none that resulted in any damage. In both of those cases Para was unable to duplicate the problem.

The reason I ask about the slides cracking on the P-13's is because I know of one recent incident involving a Para slide that cracked at just over 200 rounds according to the person making the complaint.

No slide (from any manufacturer) should crack as a result of using factory ammo, unfortunately some do. This is not limited to just Para slides however. Go to the 1911 forum and search "Slide cracked" and you'll get quite a surprise. Sorry to hear you had to experience that twice!

Like you, I prefer a single action 1911 and that is what I carry. I might disagree that the LDA parts are "fragile", but I would never argue they have greater potential for breakage....simply because there are more moving parts involved. It is something each person must consider.

Thanks again for your input.

Flint.

[G.C.Montgomery]

Thanks for the info G.C.

I have read of two other accounts of early LDA's "locking up" when short stroked...but none that resulted in any damage. In both of those cases Para was unable to duplicate the problem.

The reason I ask about the slides cracking on the P-13's is because I know of one recent incident involving a Para slide that cracked at just over 200 rounds according to the person making the complaint.

No slide (from any manufacturer) should crack as a result of using factory ammo, unfortunately some do. This is not limited to just Para slides however. Go to the 1911 forum and search "Slide cracked" and you'll get quite a surprise. Sorry to hear you had to experience that twice!

Like you, I prefer a single action 1911 and that is what I carry. I might disagree that the LDA parts are "fragile", but I would never argue they have greater potential for breakage....simply because there are more moving parts involved. It is something each person must consider.

Thanks again for your input.

Flint.

Glad to offer some input. I agree no slide should crack from factory ammo but it can happen with any design or manufacturer. As an example, I know a dozen or so shooters across the country who had cracked Glock slides a couple years back. Interestingly, only two of those Glocks were running high-pressure rounds (.357Sig and .40S&W), the rest were 9mm and .45ACP pistols.

I'm sure Para's engineers would agree with your opinion of their design too but, I'm sure they'll also acknowledge the increased complexity of the design as you do. More parts, means more opportunities for something to break and we can leave it at that even if we don't agree on the other points. Either way, it's an individual decision as to how important those issues are.