bigity wrote:Comments on that story are saying the place is posted. Not sure how to verify that other than to call em or go look. Being in Lubbock, I'll pass :)
The comments are incorrect. I eat there periodically, and it's posted 30.07 only.
Wait a minute, there must be something wrong in the video. If the place is posted with a 30.07 sign, how is it possible that these guys were openly carrying their firearms?? The 30.07 sign is supposed to make that impossible.
"All bleeding eventually stops.......quit whining!"
Once they started firing their guns I would have zero issues morally with stopping the threat. My biggest issue would be the backdrop for any of my fired rounds. Getting a shot off on a bad guy without having innocents behind them might be a trick. I would need to either have a clear area behind the BGs, or actively fighting for my life to fire on them. If there were LTC in there, this may have been their conclusion as well.
My other fear would be that BG one goes down, BG two is going to run for the door possibly shooting backwards as they run, potentially hitting innocents.
Definitely one of those big wide grey areas we get to think about, where to draw the line on when we might draw and fire. And the dang line could move based on their actions.
goose wrote:Once they started firing their guns I would have zero issues morally with stopping the threat. My biggest issue would be the backdrop for any of my fired rounds. Getting a shot off on a bad guy without having innocents behind them might be a trick. I would need to either have a clear area behind the BGs, or actively fighting for my life to fire on them. If there were LTC in there, this may have been their conclusion as well.
My other fear would be that BG one goes down, BG two is going to run for the door possibly shooting backwards as they run, potentially hitting innocents.
Definitely one of those big wide grey areas we get to think about, where to draw the line on when we might draw and fire. And the dang line could move based on their actions.
I agree, once they started firing it changes things. My initial thought was were there and LTCs in there. But the more you think about it, during the middle of the day it's lunch time the place is probably packed with people. Is it worth it to shoot?
My biggest fear would be only getting one BG and I get shot my family has to suffer the consequences. My second fear would be shooting an innocent bystander. I will say one thing, I am very glad I joined this forum. It has made my transition from an everyday citizen that pays attention to nothing to an everyday citizen that pays attention to his surroundings assesses a situation and reacts accordingly that happens to carry a firearm EVERYWHERE.
Vence
NRA Member, EDC: FNS-9mm
I have contact my state rep., Jonathan Stickland, about supporting HB 560. Fine out who represents you, here.
canvasbck wrote:.... If the place is posted with a 30.07 sign, how is it possible that these guys were openly carrying their firearms?? The 30.07 sign is supposed to make that impossible.
30.07 only applies to people with licenses, so these guys were cool... Now, if there was just a generic no guns sign, these guys would be in BIG trouble.
goose wrote:Once they started firing their guns I would have zero issues morally with stopping the threat. My biggest issue would be the backdrop for any of my fired rounds. Getting a shot off on a bad guy without having innocents behind them might be a trick. I would need to either have a clear area behind the BGs, or actively fighting for my life to fire on them. If there were LTC in there, this may have been their conclusion as well.
My other fear would be that BG one goes down, BG two is going to run for the door possibly shooting backwards as they run, potentially hitting innocents.
Definitely one of those big wide grey areas we get to think about, where to draw the line on when we might draw and fire. And the dang line could move based on their actions.
I mentioned this robbery to my wife this morning and she asked what I would have done. It's a difficult situation. I can see a potential opportunity when BG #1 is at the register and BG #2 starts walking around demanding money and valuables from customers. There is likely to have been a moment when both BG's were turned away from a given customer. Getting my weapon drawn with shots on target would have been feasible in that moment.
The challenge is that you would need to have a clear, safe, shot on both BG #1 and BG #2. And I wouldn't assume that the civilians would immediately hit the floor or otherwise get out of your line of fire. I guess this is why IDPA scenarios frequently include a hostage "don't shoot" as part of the stage set-up.
canvasbck wrote:.... If the place is posted with a 30.07 sign, how is it possible that these guys were openly carrying their firearms?? The 30.07 sign is supposed to make that impossible.
30.07 only applies to people with licenses, so these guys were cool... Now, if there was just a generic no guns sign, these guys would be in BIG trouble.
Even if they shot someone, they would probably not get indicted. The FBI director and the Attorney General just made it clear that you have to be 110% certain of a criminals' intent before you decide to indict anyone. Or maybe that is only true if your last name is Clinton.
After all, all lives matter. Some just matter more than others.
vjallen75 wrote:I will say one thing, I am very glad I joined this forum. It has made my transition from an everyday citizen that pays attention to nothing to an everyday citizen that pays attention to his surroundings assesses a situation and reacts accordingly that happens to carry a firearm EVERYWHERE.
I often wonder how many of us on this forum have averted problems simply by having our heads up and at least semi alert in our daily lives. If bad guys are generally looking for easy prey, a person with eyes up and looking around is going to interest them less. I realize that could never be statistically proven. But that said, I enjoy that the forum gives me my daily doses "pay attention" reminders. Pay attention to the laws. Pay attention to the legislature. Pay attention to my surroundings. You can find a bit of all of it here.
vjallen75 wrote:I will say one thing, I am very glad I joined this forum. It has made my transition from an everyday citizen that pays attention to nothing to an everyday citizen that pays attention to his surroundings assesses a situation and reacts accordingly that happens to carry a firearm EVERYWHERE.
I often wonder how many of us on this forum have averted problems simply by having our heads up and at least semi alert in our daily lives. If bad guys are generally looking for easy prey, a person with eyes up and looking around is going to interest them less. I realize that could never be statistically proven. But that said, I enjoy that the forum gives me my daily doses "pay attention" reminders. Pay attention to the laws. Pay attention to the legislature. Pay attention to my surroundings. You can find a bit of all of it here.
1. I don't see how you can just assume or accept that they are just there to rob and not hurt anyone most especially after they fired into the ceiling. If that is the case, wouldn't they just run when they saw your gun? I am not sure I see that logic. This is armed robbery.
2. If you assume they are just there take your money and don't draw, you are putting your life in their hands and hoping they won't decide to shoot you or anyone with you instead of just taking your money/wallet. You are also hoping they don't decide you are a concealed carrier and rob you of your gun also. If you hand over your wallet/purse, will it have your CHL in it? I guess it may also depend on what you are carrying and is it enough to stop someone.
3. You have a chance to pick your position and theirs when/if you decide to take action. You can also shoot from a low position. If this place was crowded as some people think, they aren't going to notice you drawing unless they are looking right at you. They are also going to have their back to you at least part of the time.
4. Practicing your draw: Can you draw your firearm from a sitting position without attracting attention? Can you do so smoothly? I figure I ought to practice some.
1. I don't see how you can just assume or accept that they are just there to rob and not hurt anyone most especially after they fired into the ceiling. If that is the case, wouldn't they just run when they saw your gun? I am not sure I see that logic. This is armed robbery.
2. If you assume they are just there take your money and don't draw, you are putting your life in their hands and hoping they won't decide to shoot you or anyone with you instead of just taking your money/wallet. You are also hoping they don't decide you are a concealed carrier and rob you of your gun also. If you hand over your wallet/purse, will it have your CHL in it? I guess it may also depend on what you are carrying and is it enough to stop someone.
3. You have a chance to pick your position and theirs when/if you decide to take action. You can also shoot from a low position. If this place was crowded as some people think, they aren't going to notice you drawing unless they are looking right at you. They are also going to have their back to you at least part of the time.
4. Practicing your draw: Can you draw your firearm from a sitting position without attracting attention? Can you do so smoothly? I figure I ought to practice some.
This is good insight, I will be practicing drawing from a seated position as well.
I do see what you mean, we cannot just assume that they won't actually hurt anyone. Based off of most of our initial thought process we are more worried of hitting an innocent bystander by mistake, of course assuming the room is completely filled. If the same room has less people in it, of course assuming nobody is behind either BGs, the situation changes and there is less hesitation to draw. All of the assuming is based off of what is reported in the article above.
Vence
NRA Member, EDC: FNS-9mm
I have contact my state rep., Jonathan Stickland, about supporting HB 560. Fine out who represents you, here.
MechAg94 wrote:A few things I was thinking about:
If you hand over your wallet/purse, will it have your CHL in it?
My LTC instructor told us to keep cash/credit cards in a money clip separate from DL/LTC. The robbers aren't going to take the time to see if your ID is there, just that you handed over money and credit cards. Then the robbers won't have your address.
The left lies about everything. Truth is a liberal value, and truth is a conservative value, but it has never been a left-wing value. People on the left say whatever advances their immediate agenda. Power is their moral lodestar; therefore, truth is always subservient to it. - Dennis Prager
MechAg94 wrote:A few things I was thinking about:
If you hand over your wallet/purse, will it have your CHL in it?
My LTC instructor told us to keep cash/credit cards in a money clip separate from DL/LTC. The robbers aren't going to take the time to see if your ID is there, just that you handed over money and credit cards. Then the robbers won't have your address.
It occurred to me if a concealed carrier handed over wallet with CHL in it, there is a possibility he might realized what it is and demand the gun also. Good point about keeping them separate.
vjallen75 wrote:
This is good insight, I will be practicing drawing from a seated position as well.
I do see what you mean, we cannot just assume that they won't actually hurt anyone. Based off of most of our initial thought process we are more worried of hitting an innocent bystander by mistake, of course assuming the room is completely filled. If the same room has less people in it, of course assuming nobody is behind either BGs, the situation changes and there is less hesitation to draw. All of the assuming is based off of what is reported in the article above.
I have never had to make that decision so I don't know what the best answer is. Maybe part of our awareness is also being aware of open lanes of fire that might be available wherever you are.
If I could know that pulling my cash out of my wallet and handing it over would make him go away, it would be very easy to just do that. That would work that one time. However, profit always brings repetition and attracts more participants. That probably isn't something for self defense though.
goose wrote:
I often wonder how many of us on this forum have averted problems simply by having our heads up and at least semi alert in our daily lives. If bad guys are generally looking for easy prey, a person with eyes up and looking around is going to interest them less. I realize that could never be statistically proven. But that said, I enjoy that the forum gives me my daily doses "pay attention" reminders. Pay attention to the laws. Pay attention to the legislature. Pay attention to my surroundings. You can find a bit of all of it here.
I remember in 1988 when Ted Kennedy kept asking in his speech, "Where was George..... "?" The next morning, a staff member for Bush came out and revealed the answer, which I commend to your attention as a good way for staying away from trouble : "He was sober, dry and home with his wife."
Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.
Now, if there was just a generic no guns sign, these guys would be in BIG trouble. 
