DACA - Carrying Pistol in Vehicle

[Grumpy1993]

They're disqualified under MPA if they don't have auto insurance.

[rotor]

It would have to be a private party sale. The most likely scenario would involve something sketchy in nature. Selling a gun to a DACA would be legal or illegal if one knew of their status?

My post was more in response to answer your question about whether sale of a gun to DACA would be legal or illegal. I don't care if you use a Bill of Sale or not. I think too many people get hung up on whether to use a Bill of Sale or not. My preference is to use one. Many people on this site will only sell a gun face to face and require an LTC. Remember though, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

[03Lightningrocks]

, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

Only if I Knowingly sell to an illegal alien.

[Maxwell]

, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

Only if I Knowingly sell to an illegal alien.

So stick your head in the sand and don't ask/don't tell?

[03Lightningrocks]

, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

Only if I Knowingly sell to an illegal alien.

So stick your head in the sand and don't ask/don't tell?

I think you missed the point. Unless you intend to do a back ground and citizenship investigation to everyone you sell a gun to, you have no way of knowing if they are a legal alien or not.

[rotor]

It would have to be a private party sale. The most likely scenario would involve something sketchy in nature. Selling a gun to a DACA would be legal or illegal if one knew of their status?

My post was more in response to answer your question about whether sale of a gun to DACA would be legal or illegal. I don't care if you use a Bill of Sale or not. I think too many people get hung up on whether to use a Bill of Sale or not. My preference is to use one. Many people on this site will only sell a gun face to face and require an LTC. Remember though, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Selling a gun to DACA is illegal. You might have a difficult time proving that you didn't know DACA individual was illegal, especially without a Bill of Sale. Who is to say that because you didn't know you were selling to DACA that it would be alright? You believe that the feds won't come after you because you didn't know that the individual was DACA. That might be an interesting situation but more likely without a Bill of Sale than with one. I personally don't care what you do though so let's end this discussion.

[Ike Aramba]

The same prosecutor would argue you knew the DACA dude was a prohibited person and the reason you did a bill of sale is because you wanted the alibi.

[03Lightningrocks]

The same prosecutor would argue you knew the DACA dude was a prohibited person and the reason you did a bill of sale is because you wanted the alibi.

Absolutely incorrect. It would never reach a prosecutor. Some here are flat out being paranoid. Just follow the law for a private sell and you are good. The law DOES NOT require a bill of sale. A bill of sale also DOES NOT resolve you from prosecution for KNOWINGLY selling to an illegal alien. It is only illegal if you KNEW it was an illegal alien.

"Your only obligation is to reasonably assume that the purchaser is a Texas resident and legally able to own and possess the firearm. Often times people will request a Texas Drivers License to ensure they are a state resident, write a bill of sale, and sometimes take information from the purchaser. All of these are not required, but to some, are good practice to ensure you, as the seller, are performing your duty properly. Each seller's methods vary, and some buyers are defensive about providing personal info to strangers due to identity theft."

[03Lightningrocks]

It would have to be a private party sale. The most likely scenario would involve something sketchy in nature. Selling a gun to a DACA would be legal or illegal if one knew of their status?

My post was more in response to answer your question about whether sale of a gun to DACA would be legal or illegal. I don't care if you use a Bill of Sale or not. I think too many people get hung up on whether to use a Bill of Sale or not. My preference is to use one. Many people on this site will only sell a gun face to face and require an LTC. Remember though, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Selling a gun to DACA is illegal. You might have a difficult time proving that you didn't know DACA individual was illegal, especially without a Bill of Sale. Who is to say that because you didn't know you were selling to DACA that it would be alright? You believe that the feds won't come after you because you didn't know that the individual was DACA. That might be an interesting situation but more likely without a Bill of Sale than with one. I personally don't care what you do though so let's end this discussion.

You continue to imply that a bill of sale somehow protects you. It does not. It only shows you sold the gun to someone. It does nothing else. A person who does not require a bill of sale faces zero extra risk in selling a firearm private party.

[rotor]

It would have to be a private party sale. The most likely scenario would involve something sketchy in nature. Selling a gun to a DACA would be legal or illegal if one knew of their status?

My post was more in response to answer your question about whether sale of a gun to DACA would be legal or illegal. I don't care if you use a Bill of Sale or not. I think too many people get hung up on whether to use a Bill of Sale or not. My preference is to use one. Many people on this site will only sell a gun face to face and require an LTC. Remember though, sale of a firearm to an illegal alien makes you a criminal.

You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Selling a gun to DACA is illegal. You might have a difficult time proving that you didn't know DACA individual was illegal, especially without a Bill of Sale. Who is to say that because you didn't know you were selling to DACA that it would be alright? You believe that the feds won't come after you because you didn't know that the individual was DACA. That might be an interesting situation but more likely without a Bill of Sale than with one. I personally don't care what you do though so let's end this discussion.

You continue to imply that a bill of sale somehow protects you. It does not. It only shows you sold the gun to someone. It does nothing else. A person who does not require a bill of sale faces zero extra risk in selling a firearm private party.

All a Bill of Sale does is show that you did everything reasonably possible to confirm that you were making a legal sale, that you checked the persons drivers license and or LTC, confirmed he was a Texas resident, of legal age, and that he attests to being legally able to buy a firearm. He is swearing that he can legally buy the firearm and signing the Bill of Sale stating that. As you note, it is NOT required by law but what is required by law is that you not sell to a prohibited person. If required, it is easier to prove that you did what you could by using a Bill of Sale. Next time you try to buy or sell something on one of the internet sites with a face to face meet you never know that you might be dealing with a federal sting operation and who knows what they will do. We know ATF takes license plate numbers from gun shows. If I were ever in a situation where I had to prove my innocence that signed Bill of Sale with DL#'s, attestation, addresses, etc. would be nice to have. If you sold to DACA and he got caught, I guarantee that he would claim you sold him the gun and that he didn't know that he was prohibited and you said it was alright. Go prove otherwise.

[03Lightningrocks]

Sorry Rotor. That is simply not true. I am not sure why you are so set on pumping this agenda other than feeling the existing gun laws are not strict enough? Nothing you just posted has any basis in reality. The law actually states KNOWINGLY sale to prohibited person for it to be a crime. The burden of proof is on the government. Not the seller of the firearm.

[ScottDLS]

Sorry Rotor. That is simply not true. I am not sure why you are so set on pumping this agenda other than feeling the existing gun laws are not strict enough? Nothing you just posted has any basis in reality. The law actually states KNOWINGLY sale to prohibited person for it to be a crime. The burden of proof is on the government. Not the seller of the firearm.

One minor point is the law says :

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

The burden of proof is on the United States, but I'm not sure what the courts have ruled regarding what "reasonable cause to believe" means. Likely its a fairly high standard, and it is upon the Government to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but it sure would help to have a BOS or other facts pointing to the legitimacy of your belief (that the person was eligible).

And again, back to the DACA question, IMO it's pretty clear, if you know someone has deferred status under DACA and you sell them a gun, you are committing a federal crime. At least this is the position the US is (an has been) taking. Whether they can prove it will depend on facts presented at trial.

[Redranger]

I guess the issue is that perhaps Redranger thinks DACA are legal. That seems to be the only way that one can believe that DACA can posses firearms or ammunition. Therefore if a DACA individual has a firearm or ammo in their possession while driving in Texas they would be committing a federal violation that would be a deportable offense. A smart dreamer would therefore not carry a pistol or ammo in their vehicle. Of course most Texans that have a firearm in their vehicle and are not LTC holders commit federal offenses every day as they drive within 1000 feet of a school. Has anyone ever been charged assuming no other criminal act?

They are considered "Legal" in the eyes of the US Government and USCIS.


Only guy I know who was actually illegal who got caught with a pistol and cocaine, he was deported but he was back in about 2 weeks.

[DocV]

Let's review:
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/09/05/fre ... ivals-daca

Q6: What happens when an individual’s DACA benefits expire over the course of the next two years? Will individuals with expired DACA be considered illegally present in the country?
A6: Current law does not grant any legal status for the class of individuals who are current recipients of DACA. Recipients of DACA are currently unlawfully present in the U.S. with their removal deferred. When their period of deferred action expires or is terminated, their removal will no longer be deferred and they will no longer be eligible for lawful employment.

Only Congress has the authority to amend the existing immigration laws.

[rotor]

I guess the issue is that perhaps Redranger thinks DACA are legal. That seems to be the only way that one can believe that DACA can posses firearms or ammunition. Therefore if a DACA individual has a firearm or ammo in their possession while driving in Texas they would be committing a federal violation that would be a deportable offense. A smart dreamer would therefore not carry a pistol or ammo in their vehicle. Of course most Texans that have a firearm in their vehicle and are not LTC holders commit federal offenses every day as they drive within 1000 feet of a school. Has anyone ever been charged assuming no other criminal act?

They are considered "Legal" in the eyes of the US Government and USCIS.


Only guy I know who was actually illegal who got caught with a pistol and cocaine, he was deported but he was back in about 2 weeks.

I give up. Believe what you want.