Our Supreme Court seems to have the jitters...UPDATE...

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stevie_d_64
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Our Supreme Court seems to have the jitters...UPDATE...

Post by stevie_d_64 »

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/v-p ... 21232.html

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Supreme Court ponders whether to rule on DC's handgun ban
Michael Doyle | McClatchy Newspapers
last updated: November 08, 2007 05:24:31 PM

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court takes aim at gun control Friday, in a private conference that soon could explode publicly.

Behind closed doors, the high court's nine justices will consider taking a case that challenges the District of Columbia's stringent handgun ban. Their ultimate decision will shape how far other cities and states can go with their own gun restrictions.

"If the court decides to take this up, it's very likely it will end up being the most important Second Amendment case in history," said Dennis Henigan, the legal director for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Henigan predicted "it's more likely than not" that the necessary four justices will vote to consider the case. The court will announce its decision Tuesday, and oral arguments could be heard next year.

Lawyers already are swarming from every angle

Texas, Florida and 11 other states weighed in earlier on behalf of gun owners who are challenging D.C.'s strict gun laws. New York and three other states want the gun restrictions upheld. Pediatricians filed a brief supporting the ban. A Northern California gun dealer, Russell Nordyke, filed a brief opposing it.

Tom Palmer considers the case a matter of life and death.

Palmer turns 51 this month. He's an openly gay scholar in international relations at the Cato Institute, a libertarian research center, and holds a Ph.D. from Oxford University. He thinks that a handgun saved him years ago in San Jose, Calif., when a gang threatened him.

"A group of young men started yelling at us, 'faggot,' 'homo,' 'queer,' 'we're going to kill you' (and) 'they'll never find your bodies,' " Palmer said in a March 2003 declaration. "Fortunately, I was able to pull my handgun out of my backpack, and our assailants backed off."

He and five other plaintiffs named in the original lawsuit challenged Washington's ban on possessing handguns. The District of Columbia permits possession of other firearms, if they're disassembled or stored with trigger locks.

Their broader challenge is to the fundamental meaning of the Second Amendment. Here, commas, clauses and constitutional history all matter.

The full text of the Second Amendment says, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Gun-control advocates say this means that the government can limit firearms ownership as part of its power to regulate the militia. Gun ownership is cast as a collective right, with the government organizing armed citizens to protect homeland security.

"The Second Amendment permits reasonable regulation of firearms to protect public safety and does not guarantee individuals the absolute right to own the weapons of their choice," New York and the three other states declared in an amicus brief.

Gun-control critics contend that the well-regulated militia business is beside the point, and say the Constitution protects an individual's right to possess guns.

"The right to keep and bear arms should be understood in light of the many reasons that the founding generation of Americans valued that right, including hunting and self-defense," Texas, Florida and the 11 other states declared in a competing amicus brief.

Last March, a divided appellate court panel sided with the individual-rights interpretation and threw out the D.C. handgun ban.

"The right to keep and bear arms was not created by the government, but rather preserved by it," Judge Laurence Silberman wrote for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. "The amendment does not protect the right of militiamen to keep and bear arms, but rather the right of the people."

The ruling clashed with other appellate courts, creating the kind of appellate-circuit split that the Supreme Court likes to resolve. The ruling obviously stung D.C. officials, but it perplexed gun-control advocates. If D.C. officials tried to salvage their gun-control law by appealing to the Supreme Court — as they then did — they could give the court's conservative majority a chance to undermine gun-control laws nationwide.

"There is a lot at risk," Henigan acknowledged.

Justices Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia already have indicated sympathy for the individual-rights interpretation of the Second Amendment, as has the Bush administration. Others have been coy about the amendment's scope.

"People try to read into the tea leaves . . . but that's still very much an open issue," Chief Justice John G. Roberts said during his 2005 Senate confirmation hearing.

The Supreme Court last considered such a direct challenge to Second Amendment interpretation in the 1939 case United States v. Miller. The court upheld the conviction of a bank robber for carrying a sawed-off shotgun across state lines.

There was no evidence, the court said in an opinion written by a conservative justice born in 1862, "that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense."

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Justice Stevens is going to bask in all his rediculous glory as the swing vote on all of this...

Like some of us have said before...The SCOTUS is NOT a lock in our favor...And even if it does roll in our favor:

There is nothing to force anyone involved to enforce this reversal in these areas that infringe upon the Amendments meaning...

Lets see if I am going to have to go buy another case after tomorrow... :roll:
Last edited by stevie_d_64 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our Supreme Court seems to have the jitters...

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

stevie_d_64 wrote: Justice Stevens is going to bask in all his rediculous glory as the swing vote on all of this...
Ahhh, you mean Justice Kennedy, don't you? Stevens is one of the big time liberals on the Court. He's a solid vote against gun rights.

In my view.....

Thomas votes for individual rights
Scalia votes for individual rights
Alito votes for individual rights
Roberts votes for individual rights
Kennedy could go either way, but probably votes for individual rights
Stevens votes for collective rights
Breyer votes for collective rights
Souter votes for collective rights
Ginsberg could go either way, but probably votes for collective rights

We probably win. The big unknowns are whether they will rule that strict scrutiny is required to sustain gun rights restrictions, and/or whether they will reach the threshold of "incorporation" of the 2A against the states via either the due process. equal protection, or privileges & immunities (my personal favorite) clauses of the 14th Amendment.

If we can get either strict scrutiny or incorporation, we will have smooth sailing for a long time. And states like NY, NJ, IL, MD, and MA will have to make major changes to their laws.

Of course if they find in our favor but do not reach strict scrutiny or incorporation, those matters will be left to future cases. In that case, you have to ask yourself, "Do I want these cases decided by judges appointed by Hillary/Obama, or by a Republican president, even if that ends up being Rudy?"
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Post by Kalrog »

That was a surprisingly even article. Although EVERYONE gets Miller wrong... at least the specifics with Miller being dead before it made it to SCOTUS and therefore nobody to argue his side.
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Post by srothstein »

I predict that SCOTUS will here the case. They will choose to hear it for two reasons that have little to do with guns. First, they will want to settle the issue of how to decide standing. This is a large difference between circuits (can you sue before you break the law or do you have to be actually harmed by it).

The second reason is to decide if DC is a state or not for the purposes of the Constitution and rights. DC raises this issue, along with the incorporation issue. SCOTUS will probably want to make this decision before the next election series because I see some more suits on how to represent the people who live in the district.

Then we will get to whether or not guns are an individual right or not, whether or not the Second is incorporated, and whether or not the laws are a reasonable restriction on the legal right.

And given the recent history of SCOTUS in trying to sidestep politically hot issues, I bet SCOTUS rules on something other than gun rights and we lose the case without a decisive answer.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Thomas votes for individual rights
Scalia votes for individual rights
Alito votes for individual rights
Roberts votes for individual rights
Kennedy could go either way, but probably votes for individual rights
Stevens votes for collective rights
Breyer votes for collective rights
Souter votes for collective rights
Ginsberg could go either way, but probably votes for collective rights
Yep...Good synopsis...

Kennedy "could" be a swing vote, but like you said he could make it either a 5-4, or 6-3...Depends on the little missy there...

But I am not at all comfortable with any of it...Regardless of the makeup of the court...

Part of me says lets get this over with, but the other part of me says whoaaa!!! This is not a lock in our favor just yet...

But wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting today!
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Post by Kalrog »

I just found a WIKI from scotusblog that has more amici filings and will probably be expanded shortly. They usually don't have any separate pages until Cert is granted, but they did on this one.

http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=DC_v._Heller
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Re: Our Supreme Court seems to have the jitters...

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:We probably win. The big unknowns are whether they will rule that strict scrutiny is required to sustain gun rights restrictions, . . .
In order to trigger the strict scrutiny test or standard, the Court would have to find that the Second Amendment is a "fundamental right" which it will not do. I don't believe the individual right camp is even arguing that it is a fundamental right. If the "fundamental right" issue is put before the Court, we loose 6-3. That's because no gun law - none - would meet the strict scrutiny test and the Court would know such a holding would strike down every gun law in the Country. That they will not do.
frankie_the_yankee wrote:Of course if they find in our favor but do not reach strict scrutiny or incorporation, those matters will be left to future cases. In that case, you have to ask yourself, "Do I want these cases decided by judges appointed by Hillary/Obama, or by a Republican president, even if that ends up being Rudy?"
The scope of a "good" ruling from the S/Ct. on this issue will foster litigation on its scope for many years to come. In my view, it's overly optimistic to believe that the Democratically-controlled Senate is going to approve any "strict constructionist" judges/justices you believe the Democrat-in-Republican-clothing Giuliani is going to appoint. It will never happen. Also, there is absolutely no support for the contention that a proven liar like Giuliani is going to appoint strict constructionist judges.

Also, don't be fooled by labels on judges. Unless the President is willing to make covert inquiries as to how a potential judge or S/Ct. Justice feels specifically about guns, then we know nothing. Giuliani would never make such an inquiry!! Judge Robert H. Bork was clearly the most qualified, most conservative, strict constructionist judge every nominated for the U.S. Supreme Court. He was also rabidly anti-gun and anti-2A. He would have been a disaster for us.

The folks who think "Giuliani isn't great, but he's okay" are going to be as surprised as President Eisenhower when he saw the opinions issued by his conservative choice for the S/Ct. -- William Brennan. Brennan turned out to be the most liberal Justice in modern times. We simply cannot let Giuliani get the Republican nomination.

Chas.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

If the "fundamental right" issue is put before the Court, we loose 6-3. That's because no gun law - none - would meet the strict scrutiny test and the Court would know such a holding would strike down every gun law in the Country. That they will not do.
Yep...3 certainly doesn't float anyones boat...

Any idea who's presenting this, and under what condition???
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Post by frankie_the_yankee »

Chas,

What is the standard of review just below strict scrutiny? I am thinking about the standard that requires any laws to be "narrowly tailored" and to have to demonstrate that they meet some test of "rationality" in order to be constitutional.

Also, what do you think about incorporation? Any chance the Court will go there, and get there, on this one? That would be a big win for our side, even if "reasonable regulations/restrictions" are allowed.

In my view, even if neither of the above are reached, as long as the Court rules that the 2A is an individual right, we will be 'on the road'. The 'collective right' theory will be dead and buried. The circuit courts will be obliged to follow such a ruling on the other cases that will surely follow this one.

But I still want those circuit judges to be appointed by a Republican. Democrat appointees seem to too much resemble "mind numbed robots" (to coin a phrase) in that they all seem to vote lockstep against the 2A every chance they get.
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Post by KBCraig »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:But I still want those circuit judges to be appointed by a Republican.
In the interest of comity (and getting the nominee approved), great weight is given to the opinion of that state's senators. In effect, judges are nominated by the senators unless the President has a very strong majority.

How do you think those 9th Circus clowns keep getting approved, no matter who the President is? Easy: California traditionally has powerful liberal senators, and they say who will and who won't be confirmed.
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Post by frankie_the_yankee »

KBCraig wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote:But I still want those circuit judges to be appointed by a Republican.
In the interest of comity (and getting the nominee approved), great weight is given to the opinion of that state's senators. In effect, judges are nominated by the senators unless the President has a very strong majority.

How do you think those 9th Circus clowns keep getting approved, no matter who the President is? Easy: California traditionally has powerful liberal senators, and they say who will and who won't be confirmed.
That doesn't explain why Democrat judges voted 100% against the 2A in the three major cases I analyzed. Only one of the cases was in the 9th Circuit.
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Post by KBCraig »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:That doesn't explain why Democrat judges voted 100% against the 2A in the three major cases I analyzed. Only one of the cases was in the 9th Circuit.
Cite the districts they came from, and who their sponsoring senators were, and when they moved from district to circuit (and again, who their senators were, plus who was President at the time), and we can start to analyze whether there is a meaningful pattern.
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Post by frankie_the_yankee »

I listed everything I could find in my post in the Giulianni thread. If you can dig up some of this info, feel free.

But what I found is that judges appointed by either Carter or Clinton voted/ruled/opined against the individual rights view of the 2A 100% of the time in the three major circuit court casesd of our time.

Judges appointed by Reagan, Bush41, and Bush43 voted/ruled/opiined in favor of the individual rights view of the 2A almost 100% of the time in these same cases.

That's enough evidence for me.
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Post by KBCraig »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:I listed everything I could find in my post in the Giulianni thread. If you can dig up some of this info, feel free.
It's your claim, so the onus is on you. Don't ask me to find your supporting data.

But what I found is that judges appointed by either Carter or Clinton voted/ruled/opined against the individual rights view of the 2A 100% of the time in the three major circuit court casesd of our time.

Judges appointed by Reagan, Bush41, and Bush43 voted/ruled/opiined in favor of the individual rights view of the 2A almost 100% of the time in these same cases.

That's enough evidence for me.
You haven't broken that out by the composition of the Senate at the time, nor the makeup of the relative states' Senatorial delegations, so the party of the nominating Presidents is absolutely meaningless.
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Post by frankie_the_yankee »

KBCraig wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote: I listed everything I could find in my post in the Giulianni thread. If you can dig up some of this info, feel free.
It's your claim, so the onus is on you. Don't ask me to find your supporting data.
Ahh, you're the one making the claim that the data I have dug up may not mean anything because of all this other data you would like to see that hypothetically may support my case or not.

I haven't even agreed that what you're asking to see is meaningful.

So as I said, feel free to support your contention by digging the data up. We'll see what it looks like.
KBCraig wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote: But what I found is that judges appointed by either Carter or Clinton voted/ruled/opined against the individual rights view of the 2A 100% of the time in the three major circuit court casesd of our time.

Judges appointed by Reagan, Bush41, and Bush43 voted/ruled/opiined in favor of the individual rights view of the 2A almost 100% of the time in these same cases.

That's enough evidence for me.
You haven't broken that out by the composition of the Senate at the time, nor the makeup of the relative states' Senatorial delegations, so the party of the nominating Presidents is absolutely meaningless.
FWIW, Carter had a Democrat Senate. Bush 43 had a Republican Senate when he appointed the judges involved in these decisions. I'm not sure who controlled the Senate when Reagan and Bush41 appointed the named judges.

But I'm not sure what difference it makes either. You're the one making that claim. Feel free to present the data and we can discuss it.

I think in general it is safe to say that a Democrat Senate makes it more diffucult to get Originalist judges confirmed, and a Republican Senate makes it easier. But in recent times, Republican Senates have been more willing to defer to the president's wishes and confirm a "living constitution" type of justice as in the cases of Breyer and Ginsberg appointed by Clinton. Democrats, even in the minority, seem to be less willing to confirm Originalist judges as seen by the battles over Roberts and Alito

But what I stated is still no less true for all of that. Judges appointed by Democrats in recent times have voted against the 2A 100% of the time in these three major 2A cases, and judges appointed by Republicans in recent times have voted in favor of the 2A nearly 100% of the time.

If you believe that some other factor(s) besides who appointed them might be involved, I would be interested to see any arguments and data you may have on the subject.
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