Our Supreme Court seems to have the jitters...UPDATE...

What's going on in Washington, D.C.?

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stevie_d_64
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Another "media" update...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071111/ap_ ... tus_guns_5

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Supreme Court could take guns case

By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer Sun Nov 11, 12:03 PM ET

WASHINGTON - Supreme Court justices have track records that make predicting their rulings on many topics more than a mere guess. Then there is the issue of the Second Amendment and guns, about which the court has said virtually nothing in nearly 70 years.

That could change in the next few months.

The justices are facing a decision about whether to hear an appeal from city officials in Washington, D.C., wanting to keep the capital's 31-year ban on handguns. A lower court struck down the ban as a violation of the Second Amendment rights of gun ownership.

The prospect that the high court might define gun rights under the Constitution is making people on both sides of the issue nervous.

"I wouldn't be confident on either side," said Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor and author of a new book on the battle over guns in the United States.

The court could announce as early as Tuesday whether it will hear the case.

The main issue before the justices is whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or instead spells out the collective right of states to maintain militias. The former interpretation would permit fewer restrictions on gun ownership.

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The federal appeals court for the District of Columbia was the first federal panel to strike down a gun-control law based on individual rights. The court ruled in favor of Dick Anthony Heller, an armed security guard whose application to keep a handgun at home was denied by the district.

Most other U.S. courts have said the Second Amendment does not contain a right to have a gun for purely private purposes.

Chicago has a similar handgun ban, but few other gun-control laws are as strict as the district's.

Four states — Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland and New York — are urging the Supreme Court to take the case because broad application of the appeals court ruling would threaten "all federal and state laws restricting access to firearms."

The district said its law, passed in 1976, was enacted by local elected officials who believed it was a sensible way to save lives. The law also requires residents to keep shotguns and rifles unloaded and disassembled or fitted with trigger locks.

The city's appeal asks the court to look only at the handgun ban because local law allows possession of other firearms.

Critics say the law has done little to curb violence, mainly because guns obtained legally from the district or through illegal means still are readily available.

Although the city's homicide rate has declined dramatically since peaking in the early 1990s, it ranks among the nation's highest, with 169 killings in 2006.

Heller said Washington remains a dangerous place to live. "People need not stand by and die," he said in court papers.

He said the Second Amendment gives him the right to keep working guns, including handguns, in his home for his own protection.

The last time the court examined the meaning of the Second Amendment was in a 1939 case in which two men claimed the amendment gave them the right to have sawed-off shotguns. A unanimous court ruled against them.

Gun control advocates say the 1939 decision in U.S. v. Miller settled the issue in favor of a collective right. Gun rights proponents say the decision has been misconstrued.

Chief Justice John Roberts has said the question has not been resolved by the Supreme Court. The 1939 decision "sidestepped" the issue of whether the Second Amendment right is individual or collective, Roberts said at his confirmation hearing in 2005.

"That's still very much an open issue," Roberts said.
Big signal here!
Both the district government and Heller want the high court to take the case. The split among the appeals courts and the importance of the issue make it likely that the justices will do so, Tushnet said.

The case is District of Columbia v. Heller, 07-290.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

An update...See I told you they'd have the jitters...

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/
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Post by anygunanywhere »

So if they decide to not review it then the appelate ruling stands?

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Post by Kalrog »

anygunanywhere wrote:So if they decide to not review it then the appelate ruling stands?

Anygun
If that is what they decide, then yes. But that isn't what they decided. They didn't decide anything yet. They didn't deny cert (and let the DC ruling stand), they didn't grant cert (and hear the case), they just didn't answer yet. They will.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

What seems kinda funny to me, but never surprising...

Anytime I see a really neat ruling by a court, that someone else doesn't like...No one does squat to implement the "change" until a higher court rules on the ruling...And even then, nothing really gets done about it at any level...

Those folks in D.C. will still be defenseless, and it would be illegal for them to implement their own choice in the method in which they would like to be secure in their own homes...

I find this most disturbing from any point of view...

And for the Supreme Court to NOT take this on, regardless of the outcome, is borderline (political) cowardice...But what else is new...

I know I've said this before, the court is not a lock in our favor...But seat 9 of us on this forum in black robes and give us one task, I believe it probably take about 30 seconds to take care of this...

But then again why should I think we'd be fair to the process... :lol:
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Post by Charles L. Cotton »

stevie_d_64 wrote:What seems kinda funny to me, but never surprising...

Anytime I see a really neat ruling by a court, that someone else doesn't like...No one does squat to implement the "change" until a higher court rules on the ruling...And even then, nothing really gets done about it at any level...

Those folks in D.C. will still be defenseless, and it would be illegal for them to implement their own choice in the method in which they would like to be secure in their own homes...

I find this most disturbing from any point of view...

And for the Supreme Court to NOT take this on, regardless of the outcome, is borderline (political) cowardice...But what else is new...

I know I've said this before, the court is not a lock in our favor...But seat 9 of us on this forum in black robes and give us one task, I believe it probably take about 30 seconds to take care of this...

But then again why should I think we'd be fair to the process... :lol:
There is a very real issue on "standing;" that is the plaintiffs' legal right to bring suit without exhausting administrative remedies. I don't know that this the reason for the delay or denial, but I'm worried.

Chas.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote:What seems kinda funny to me, but never surprising...

Anytime I see a really neat ruling by a court, that someone else doesn't like...No one does squat to implement the "change" until a higher court rules on the ruling...And even then, nothing really gets done about it at any level...

Those folks in D.C. will still be defenseless, and it would be illegal for them to implement their own choice in the method in which they would like to be secure in their own homes...

I find this most disturbing from any point of view...

And for the Supreme Court to NOT take this on, regardless of the outcome, is borderline (political) cowardice...But what else is new...

I know I've said this before, the court is not a lock in our favor...But seat 9 of us on this forum in black robes and give us one task, I believe it probably take about 30 seconds to take care of this...

But then again why should I think we'd be fair to the process... :lol:
There is a very real issue on "standing;" that is the plaintiffs' legal right to bring suit without exhausting administrative remedies. I don't know that this the reason for the delay or denial, but I'm worried.

Chas.
I'm concerned as well...A delay could mean a great many things...

Administrative, needing further reviews (i.e. more time)...

Or...

Lets wait to do this until after the election next year...

If a democrat wins the WH, I see a mass exodus of aging justices leaving so they can insert young blood on the bench...To counter the originalists put on the court recently...

Thats just a scary theory I have...
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Post by Kalrog »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
There is a very real issue on "standing;" that is the plaintiffs' legal right to bring suit without exhausting administrative remedies. I don't know that this the reason for the delay or denial, but I'm worried.

Chas.
Charles,

I don't know how closely you have been following this, but I'm going to assume not all that closely (sorry if I am wrong). With that in mind (and as a recap for everyone):

There are really 2 cases here. The first is with Dick Hellar. He has standing as he has certainly exhausted all administrative process. I don't think anyone is arguing that he doesn't have standing. The second is the remaining 5 of the original 6 plaintiffs who were found to not have standing at the DC court and they have petitioned to reinstate standing.

I see 2 likely reasons for the delay (and these truly are guesses). The first is that cert was granted for Hellar but there was some disagreement about standing for the other 5 so they are giving the dissenters time to write a dissenting opinion on the cross petition. The other big reason I see has to do with what question the court is going to be looking at. DC and Hellar brought slightly different questions to the court (DC wanted the court to address only the handgun ban while Hellar wanted the entire thing thrown out). SCOTUS could be talking about what question they want to address. And that conversation could impact the previous guess about the delay.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

Kalrog wrote:The other big reason I see has to do with what question the court is going to be looking at. DC and Hellar brought slightly different questions to the court (DC wanted the court to address only the handgun ban while Hellar wanted the entire thing thrown out). SCOTUS could be talking about what question they want to address. And that conversation could impact the previous guess about the delay.
Yes...I believe thats what Charles was saying earlier in the thread...What is actually going to be taken up by the court...

Either one (question) is not a lock in our favor is what I was inferring to...

I mean yes, in a way it would be good to get the Supreme Court to finally do something on all of this, its been a long time since they've visited, or even considered doing something this drastic on the Amendment...

In another way, we should be cautious,because of the way it cold be presented, that could effect the way it is deciphered...

Ehhhh, well, I still have my guns anyway... ;-)
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Post by Charles L. Cotton »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Chas,

What is the standard of review just below strict scrutiny? I am thinking about the standard that requires any laws to be "narrowly tailored" and to have to demonstrate that they meet some test of "rationality" in order to be constitutional.

Also, what do you think about incorporation? Any chance the Court will go there, and get there, on this one? That would be a big win for our side, even if "reasonable regulations/restrictions" are allowed.

In my view, even if neither of the above are reached, as long as the Court rules that the 2A is an individual right, we will be 'on the road'. The 'collective right' theory will be dead and buried. The circuit courts will be obliged to follow such a ruling on the other cases that will surely follow this one.

But I still want those circuit judges to be appointed by a Republican. Democrat appointees seem to too much resemble "mind numbed robots" (to coin a phrase) in that they all seem to vote lockstep against the 2A every chance they get.
The strict scrutiny test requires a law to be "narrowly tailored." The three elements of the strict scrutiny test are:

1. A compelling state interest in the regulation;
2. The regulation must be narrowly tailored to achieve the goal; and
3. The regulation must use the least restrictive means to achieve the goal.

The easiest standard to pass is the rational basis test that merely requires the government to show that a regulation is a rational means to a legitimate government interest. Almost anything can pass this standard, unless we are dealing with suspect classes of people.

There is also an intermediate level of scrutiny, that I believe is typically applied to suspect class cases. However, I have to be very careful trying to discuss this area of the law -- my practice does not include constitutional law. I am somewhat more familiar with constitutional law issues than I otherwise would be, because of my work on the NRA Legal Affairs Committee, Legislative Policy Committee and the NRA Civil Rights Defense Fund Board of Trustees, but I am far from a Con-Law expert! That said, I am very familiar with the Strict Scrutiny and Rational Basis tests. The Second Amendment should be held to be an individual right, but we'll never see it held to be a fundamental right, as this would trigger the Strict Scrutiny Test.

Chas.
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Post by stevie_d_64 »

The "strict scrutiny test"...Ok, I'll take it...I think I'll flunk it but I do not fear taking the test...

1. A compelling state interest in the regulation;

The compelling "state" interest in this is the fact that the District of Columbia is not a state in that definition, therefore their interest in this is a political, knee-jerk reactionary "district" policy that directly infringes upon a very wide demographic of people (citizens) who had no recourse to stop or change this un-Constitutional law...Until now...

2. The regulation must be narrowly tailored to achieve the goal; and

The regulation is tailored to infringe upon a citizen of this countries individual-inalienable right to keep and bear arms per the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, their is irrefutable evidence that supports that this un-Constitutional law has not had any effect but to directly endanger the lives of those citizens in that "district", and that the illegality of what it generates to the public, needs to be removed immediately and that individual right to keep and bear arms needs restored with all due fanfare and publicity!

Just because!

3. The regulation must use the least restrictive means to achieve the goal.

The least restrictive means was to make it illegal to exercise an overall Constitutional right to own and possess the means to protect yourself in your own home...It dove right past property lines and right into the door to your home...It is a violation of your civil rights to privacy, and private ownership of property that is (mostly, we have a few more hotspots I know) not illegal outside of their (governments) jurisdiction...

Maybe I have this all wrong, but I feel that it is imperative that this be presented to and addressed (correctly) by the court, and that this sets a precident that all infringing laws, regulations, restrictions and ordinances that make it illegal even to possess freely and unrestricted in your own home be struct down and made unenforcable and more importantly incapable of being re-introduced in any way shape or form to do the same thing to any citizen in any state in this country...

But like what was said before, the odds of this happening are slim to none...And this is what it would take to make things right per the founding documents we base our lives and law upon...

So if we could fantisize about removing the political cowardice of our government from this, I believe even with the makeup of the court now it would be fairly easy to accomplish, but that being a fantasy, I do not believe much will happen even if it does go in our favor...

I am just not at all pleased with the blatant delay in getting this work done by the court...

I have my concerns about the possible outcome, and know its not a lock in our favor, but the delay means to me that it has hit a big fear cord in our government, and they do not want to lose the control they have over us about this issue...

And that is just wrong from here to Christmas...

The only ramifications I see to us winning this deal is the government loses, and like taxes, they do not like losing revenue or the ability to control the money and what they want to spend it on...Its all a corruptable disease that infects elected officials of all makes and models unfortunately...

But I am obviously just long in the tooth tonight and appologize for another meaningless rant...I just feel that its an easy fix, and that the only people who will suffer from a reversal of these infringements are the people who should suffer for dragging us to this point when it didn;t need to be this way...

So I'll be happy to pour salt in that wound, to make it sting for a while...That lesson needs to be ingrained in the membrane in certain types of politicos out there...

I'm off... ;-)

I think I should at least get an "A" on my essay...Even if I flunked the questions!
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Post by KBCraig »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:...I am far from a Con-Law expert!
It's been a number of years since I read the numbers, but I recall that a shockingly high number of JDs graduate without even once reading the Constitution in its entirety. Not even in Con Law.

:???:
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Post by hkshooter »

Looks like they are going to hear the case after all. I just saw this relased a few minutes ago:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1
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Post by KBCraig »

From SCOTUSblog:

The Justices chose to write out for themselves the question(s) they will undertake to answer. Both sides had urged the Court to hear the city’s case, but they had disagreed over how to frame the Second Amendment issue.

Here is the way the Court phrased the granted issue:

“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?�



Looks like it will be a very narrow ruling.
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Post by hkshooter »

Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia,
That's interesting, considering the 2nd amendment makes no mention of a state regulated militia.
"The defence of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law."
--- James Wilson, Wilson, Of the Natural Rights of Individuals, in The Works of James Wilson 335 (J.D. Andrews ed. 1896).
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