Church Carrying advice gotten today...

[Wildcats2008]

We had a ministry "safety Meet' earlier today (what to do in case of fire/tornado/gunman/etc.) and we didn't specifically cover CHL but I did have a chance to talk one on one with a police officer that is involved with that ministry and also part of the emergency response planning team. I asked him what the role is for some who has their CHL and is carrying at the time of a gunman. He informed me that until there is a check in procedure for the staff to know specifically is carrying that day it would be best for anyone with their CHL and is "hot" to not pull out their weapon simply for the fact that the police officers are trained to shoot whoever they deem as a threat and you might be mistaken for the suspect and be shot. Keep in mind that the church I attend sees at LEAST 6000+ on any given Sunday and there are on duty police officers as well as off-duty police officers that are carrying so there could be at least 20 cops on our campus already...

The system that they are in the process of creating is where if you are carrying that Sunday (or any service time) that you check in with the usher/greeter volunteers who is head up by the #2 leader at our church...when you check in you receive some kind of identification that will easily show that you are not the shooter. I've got some doubts about that system but it does make you think that in a place that big and in the event of a shooter the amount of chaos how easy it would be for a law abiding CHL holder to be mistaken as a BG...

For all you people who carry at church I still say go for it but for you who go to the bigger churches like me where not everyone knows everyone (not by a long shot) be sure to let at least the leadership know...

[Greybeard]

Quote: "be sure to let at least the leadership know..."

I'd question in some cases where such might cause more harm than good. Particularly dependendent upon the "leadership".

[TDDude]

it would be best for anyone with their CHL and is "hot" to not pull out their weapon simply for the fact that the police officers are trained to shoot whoever they deem as a threat

This would be more of a threat to a CHL than the actual BG shooter.

If your church has police & armed gards already, let them do their jobs and just stay out of the way.

[dihappy]

Here, just place this playing card on your hat :)

[Greybeard]

In a training session a few years back, it was noted that one of the ways a certain group of "good guy" allies in the mideast prepared for similar was by issuing color coded (baseball type) caps for "concealment". If an incident broke out, anyone with a gun and not wearing the proper color baseball cap was to get hosed. This was in a country where "leadership" views civilian casualties as "the cost of doing business".

Wildcat - ' Just noticed this wuz ya post numero uno. Welcome.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Wildcats2008, welcome to TexasCHLforum and thanks for joining us. Are you in Houston? I suspect I know the church you are talking about, if you are.

A church that size is about the same tactical situation as having a shooter in a shopping mall. Unless you see an innocent person being murdered, there is no way to know who's the murderer and who is a CHL or off-duty COP. Even if you see someone shot, unless it's a young child or someone you know well, we still can't be sure it's not a CHL or LEO taking out the BG. The last thing a CHL needs is to draw and be just one more man-with-a-gun, unless of course someone is posing an immediate threat to them or their family.

With all the publicity around the recent large church shooting and discussions about security, I suspect the chance of a mega-church being hit again has gone down dramatically. But, that's just Cotton looking into his crystal ball.

Chas.

[DoubleJ]

would that be a Cotton Ball?

I know, the church could hand out CHL Badges!!!

*collective groan*

[flb_78]

6000+ members?!?!?! Good God!

My home town is 450 people and church membership was about 75 folks.

[KBCraig]

6000+ members?!?!?! Good God!

My home town is 450 people and church membership was about 75 folks.

Oh, so you went to the big fancy church!


I know what you mean. I grew up in a town of 400 (my HS graduating class was 21, the largest they'd ever had). We had Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, Freewill Baptist, and Assemblies of God churches. Most had Sunday morning attendance of 30-40.

(delete off-topic editorial about megachurches)

[aardwolf]

The system that they are in the process of creating is where if you are carrying that Sunday (or any service time) that you check in with the usher/greeter volunteers who is head up by the #2 leader at our church...when you check in you receive some kind of identification that will easily show that you are not the shooter. I've got some doubts about that system but it does make you think that in a place that big and in the event of a shooter the amount of chaos how easy it would be for a law abiding CHL holder to be mistaken as a BG...

What's stopping the bad guy from checking in? It's not like these mass murderers really expect to escape without anyone knowing who they are.

Or shooting someone who checked in and taking their CHL badge?

[locknload]

flb_78, I thought my little town was small ... we lived in the Big City, by comparison .... 2500 pop. in our heyday, 83 in my grad. class, and about 600 in our First Baptist Church. We also had Methodist, 2 Lutheran, Church of Christ, and Catholic ... and almost everybody went to church. (It was a very long time ago. I'm 60+) Now, we go on Sat. night, to what DH calls the "Rock n Roll Service," in our present church and have 3 CHL's that I know of among about 80 - 130 usually attending. I think my willingness to talk to the other ladies about my love of making little holes in paper will eventually gain us some more shooters. Several of the ladies are concerned for their safety, since the recent church shootings and plan to attend classes or get training.

There have been a couple of discussions about what we would do, if someone threatens us. The funny thing is what brought about these discussions. There is a wedding almost every Sat., usually just before our service, but sometimes at the same time. On one such Sat., there were a number of uniformed Police walking our halls, an unusual sight. So, I asked why they were there and was told that they were expecting trouble from the Bride's ex, who had threatened her and the groom, and the groom's Mother had already walked out in a huff, so the whole wedding party was on edge. Wow!

So, since I often work the light board in the back in the sound booth and DH is often up in front in the band, we've discussed how not to get caught in the crossfire. Also, the other CHL is an usher and has had to legally use his weapon to save his own life on a couple of occasions. I haven't asked what the church policy on having weapons is, I'll carry regardless or move on to a church with a better attitude, if they decide my life and theirs' isn't worth defending.

So, my question to Wildcats2008 is: Have you given any thought to how you would defend yourself and others in church, if you were in a small meeting that wasn't covered by LEO's? The 20 cops will be there only while church is going on. Any BG that has had experience with a large church will know that and would arrive on Wed. night or Bible Study night or Elder Meeting night ... you get my drift. I still think there is a need for a CHL meeting. Perhaps, organized and directed by your Security Officer, with a training program and whatever rules your SO and Staff decide on. BTW, if you have such a meeting, can I sit in? We need to broach this topic at our church, however, I have hesitated to do so, because it is such a liberal Baptist Church that I'm concerned about how it will be received. At any rate, the three CHL's that have identified ourselves to each other need to have a plan.

Thanks for bringing this topic up. It's important.

[TX Rancher]

I personally would not inform anyone at your church that I was carrying. Obviously the exception would be LEO…as the saying goes, concealed means concealed.

As Chas wrote, if you or someone you’re responsible for ain’t in imminent danger, then stay out of the fight.

As for wearing something that denotes you as CHL to the good guys, I wouldn’t. If it’s visible enough to attract attention from LEO during a gunfight, it’s visible enough to attract the attention of the BG if they know the policy.

“Are you carrying your firearm today Mr Wildcat?�

“Of course�

“Well, please wear this vest during the service�

Wildcat looks at the vest and notices the front and back have a target bull’s-eye stitched on them.

“Did you realize you gave me a vest with a target on it�?

“They are all marked that way…appropriate don’t you think�!

As the comedian says…here’s your sign!

In the case of a single or two active shooters, the very size of the congregation is working to your advantage (many targets for the BG to choose from). Think about security when you are seated. Where are the exits? Can you and those you’re responsible for get to them? Remember, the crowd will likely be panicked so move as soon as you ascertain there is a risk. Typically, the crowd will initially stand there like deer in a headlight until they get through the denial phase (but this can’t be happening to me!), then they will panic and start trampling each other. Use this “denial� time to get to the exit or your “Alamo� location (which you picked out as soon as you were seated).

If you can’t make it to an exit, it’s Alamo time. Get you and yours behind anything that represents cover. If cover isn’t available (most likely it’s not in a church), concealment is second best (to the active shooter in a target rich environment, out of sight is out of mind). The key point is don’t represent a target/threat to the shooters (both BG and GG).

Covertly draw your weapon, but don’t make it visible to others. Just clear leather, but keep it under your jacket, or in some other way keep it in your hand, but out of sight.

If there are multiple folks you are responsible for (let’s assume you have a family for this discussion), prior to church, have a delegate who will be responsible for keeping the herd together and down wherever you put them. That way you’re free to concentrate on the actions around you without having to keep track of your family members.

Fortunately you’re not in a school or mall situation. You stated you have maybe 20 armed LEO’s in the area, they will quickly bring the one or two shooters down …the whole thing will be over in a few seconds.

If you have to shoot, then shoot. But as soon as the immediate threat is neutralized, get the weapon into a non-threatening location (low ready, back under your jacket, etc.) and immediately follow any verbal commands issued by LEO. Yelling I’m a good guy couldn’t hurt…

If you do have to shoot, do so “on the move�…and be moving away from those you are responsible for. You can at least act as a bullet magnet and draw the shooters attention away from those you are responsible for. That way, even if you don’t bring the active shooter down, or they bring you down, you are still reducing the risk to your family.

This is all based on it being a couple of nut cases intent on killing innocent bystanders. If it’s something more sinister like an AQ terror squad, then your response should be entirely different…

[stevie_d_64]

would that be a Cotton Ball?

I know, the church could hand out CHL Badges!!!

*collective groan*

Boy, Charles, DJ sure is pushing the edge of the envelope on this one...Shall I administer the obligatory noogie for this hienous infraction???

Got to admit it though...Is kinda funny...

[Venus Pax]

would that be a Cotton Ball?