18 year old with a gun in the car

[tboesche]

I am sure we have discussed this previously, but can not find the topic. It is my recolection that someone under 21 may carry a gun in their vehicle under the castle doctrine law. I realize that they can not leagally purchase a handgun, but say I give one to my 18 year old daughter. Perfectly legal to do! But, Is it legal for her to carry in the vehicle with her, loaded and properly concealed.

I was at a local range the other day with her and we were looking at a few pistols that she may like when she turns 18 in a few months. The guy behind the counter claimed to be former LE and said no way she could have the gun with her in the car until she is 21

Leo's and lawyers, Your opinion?

All other please reply also

[barres]

There is nothing in the Penal Code about a minimum age for the exemption to UCW for carrying in a car. Therefore, anyone who can legally own a handgun can legally carry in a vehicle that they own or are in control of. Your daughter will be perfectly legal to carry in a car. In fact, she is perfectly legal to carry in a car right now.

The only sticky point is not for the person carrying in their car. If a 16 year old carries in their car, it is legal, according to a lack of anything in the UCW law making it illegal. It is, however, illegal to make a firearm accessible to someone under the age of 17. This would not apply to your daughter, since she is, apparently, already 17.

I am not, however, a lawyer, so do not take this as legal advise. Do your own research on the UCW law.

[tboesche]

BArres,
Thanks for your response. This is my understanding as well. I am hoping that Charles or one of the LEO's pop in with a response also.

[KBCraig]

Lots of gun shop and range clerks, and lots of ex-LEO (even current ones!) "know" a lot of things that aren't so.

Barres gave you the correct answer. I'll just add that the prohibition on providing a gun to someone under 17 is not a prohibition against a 16 year old carrying. It's also only a prohibition on making a "readily dischargeable" firearm available, which means one that contains ammunition.

My teenagers know how to load their own.

The statute in its entirety, with highlights added:

§ 46.13. MAKING A FIREARM ACCESSIBLE TO A CHILD.
(a) In this section:
(1) "Child" means a person younger than 17 years of
age.
(2) "Readily dischargeable firearm" means a firearm
that is loaded with ammunition, whether or not a round is in the
chamber.
(3) "Secure" means to take steps that a reasonable
person would take to prevent the access to a readily dischargeable
firearm by a child, including but not limited to placing a firearm
in a locked container or temporarily rendering the firearm
inoperable by a trigger lock or other means.
(b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a
readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal
negligence:
(1) failed to secure the firearm; or
(2) left the firearm in a place to which the person
knew or should have known the child would gain access.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the child's access to the firearm:
(1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of
age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people
or property;
(3) was gained by entering property in violation of
this code; or
(4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged
in an agricultural enterprise.
(d) Except as provided by Subsection (e), an offense under
this section is a Class C misdemeanor.
(e) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor
if the child discharges the firearm and causes death or serious
bodily injury to himself or another person.
(f) A peace officer or other person may not arrest the actor
before the seventh day after the date on which the offense is
committed if:
(1) the actor is a member of the family, as defined by
Section 71.003, Family Code, of the child who discharged the
firearm; and
(2) the child in discharging the firearm caused the
death of or serious injury to the child.
(g) A dealer of firearms shall post in a conspicuous
position on the premises where the dealer conducts business a sign
that contains the following warning in block letters not less than
one inch in height:
"IT IS UNLAWFUL TO STORE, TRANSPORT, OR ABANDON AN UNSECURED FIREARM IN A PLACE WHERE CHILDREN ARE LIKELY TO BE AND CAN OBTAIN ACCESS TO THE FIREARM."

[LCP_Dogg]

I vaugely recall my CHL instructor telling me ammunition is also part of this. Failure to lock up ammunition if there is an unloaded, unlocked gun in the nearby vicinity, is an offense against this section. It doesn't seem to say that in the penal code but that is what he told me I believe.

[KBCraig]

I vaugely recall my CHL instructor telling me ammunition is also part of this. Failure to lock up ammunition if there is an unloaded, unlocked gun in the nearby vicinity, is an offense against this section. It doesn't seem to say that in the penal code but that is what he told me I believe.

He very well might have told you that, but if he did, he had an imperfect understanding of the law.

"Readily dischargeable firearm" is defined very specifically in the statute.

[tboesche]

KBCraig,
Thanks for the confirmation

[lrb111]

Another point,, the law in effect is the Motorist Protection Act, not the Castle Doctrine.

[barres]

I'll just add that the prohibition on providing a gun to someone under 17 is not a prohibition against a 16 year old carrying. It's also only a prohibition on making a "readily dischargeable" firearm available, which means one that contains ammunition.

My teenagers know how to load their own.

I'll have to remember that when my boys get a little older. I didn't think about it from that perspective.

[SlowDave]

Interesting. Note the unhighlighted section of 46.13 (c.2) says that:
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the child's access to the firearm:
...
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people
or property;
...

So... if your child had access to the firearm (even if loaded) and used it for self defense, they would be legal. If they were pulled over and searched and found with loaded weapon, it would be illegal. And that would fall under section (d) which categorizes it as a Class C misdemeanor. That's not much, is it? Not recommending to others, but might be worth the risk for my kids in a few years.

I guess they could go around the loop in case of a self-defense use and say that, well, they also had access during the previous months/years when there was no self-defense, but there would be no proof or witness or whatever of that. Thoughts?

[stevie_d_64]

"accessability" is a key word in there if I recall correctly...

I had an issue regarding my right to keep and bear arms while in the presense of an convicted felon (who has served their time and is off parole, etc etc, done their time, paid their dues)...

I was told (rather matter of fact) that I could not be armed in their presense which forced me to inform that person of the statute noted above...

As long as the firearm was in my direct control (i.e. concealed, or open, holstered, on my person, or locked up in a gunsafe in a car or at home) that that made the firearm inaccessable and under my direct control...

I believe that situation applies to those underage as well...If I recall correctly 18 is good on long guns and shotguns, but not handguns...When you turn 21 is when the hangun issue comes into play...

Bottom line is I just don't leave firearms lying around for just anyone to come across, regardless of age or criminal history...

[boomerang]

I believe that situation applies to those underage as well...If I recall correctly 18 is good on long guns and shotguns, but not handguns...When you turn 21 is when the hangun issue comes into play...

That's right for purchasing handguns. I can't find any Texas laws prohibiting a 17 or 18 year old from possessing a handgun.

Bottom line is I just don't leave firearms lying around for just anyone to come across, regardless of age or criminal history...

Lock the car door.

[KBCraig]

Interesting. Note the unhighlighted section of 46.13 (c.2) says that:
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this
section that the child's access to the firearm:
...
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people
or property;
...

So... if your child had access to the firearm (even if loaded) and used it for self defense, they would be legal. If they were pulled over and searched and found with loaded weapon, it would be illegal.

It wouldn't be illegal for the child.

It would be illegal for anyone who might have allowed access with criminal negligence (per the statute) to a firearm that was readily dischargeable.

So: if you left a loaded, unsecured firearm in the vehicle and then allowed the child to drive, you'd be guilty. If you handed the child a loaded firearm and let them carry it out of your supervision, you'd be guilty. If you left the loaded firearm in a place you "knew or should have known" (again, from the statute) and the child retrieved it on their own, you'd be guilty.

But by a strict reading of the statute, an unloaded firearm never needs to be secured from a child under 17. Not even if they have their own ammo and magazines and are perfectly capable of loading it up themselves.

And if they do so, it is not an offense for the child. Even if the firearm was left readily dischargeable, possessing it is not an offense for the child; only for the person allowing access.