Generation Gaps

[jimlongley]

I remember the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and remarking there goes our music - or something like that. It stunk then and it stinks now.

Can you clarify that? Did you think the Beatles' music stank, or the objections to it?

I liked the Beatles. Toward the end, they became somewhat noisy and lazy, IMHO. (I'm thinking of songs like "Revolution #9.")

This issue of the younger generation's degenerate music has been around forever. Google Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring," particularly the parts about riots breaking out in theaters.

There weren't widespread drugs in the '50's - were there?

Nothing like the rate now, but marijuana, heroin, and cocaine have been around for hundreds of years. In the 1950s, in the U.S., they were confined mostly to blacks, Mexicans, and beatniks. There was also a methamphetamine drug culture mainly involving biker gangs.

- Jim

I'm with Old on this one, I thought the Beatles were the ruination of Rock and Roll after their first six songs (or was it eight) so I quit listening to R&R in general and went country. I would drive my friends crazy when a Beatles song came on the radio and I would change the station, often to the only country station in our area. I also knew where every barn and square dance hall withint 60 miles of my home was.

I was just short of eighteen when the Beatles came to fame and hanging out in a little known town in upstate NY, called Woodstock, where you could get expresso and chat, as an equal, with Bob Dylan at the Cafe Parisian. The only problem was I had no idea who Dylan was.

Pot was available, as were other drugs, and I can remember some of my high school classmates trying pipes or infusions of various plants that grew wild nearby. All of them tasted wierd to me, including pot, so I never tried them again, but I sure liked the taste of beer. The most popular illicit things going on were underage drinking and going to the submarine races. There was a lot of teen pregnancy, it was just not talked about so openly, and usually either the guy "did the right thing" or the girl "went to live with relatives" until the crisi passed.

When I met my first wife, I set country on the back burner while I developed a taste for Bach, as she was a classically trained pianist, but she accompanied me to Charlie Pride and Loretta Lynn concerts, as well as to see Reed Northrup and his New Arkansas Travellers.

I think the BIG generation gap is more a product of each generation's desire to separate themselves from the previous ones' values, and that their "non-conformity" ends up being a new conformity. I was a non-conformist from the word go, I dressed different from my peers, and did some different things. When other kids were standing in line to sign up for Auto Shop, I was trying to get the school to let me sign up for Home Economics, and I still enjoy cooking and sewing. I worked on cars, I hunted, went to sock hops, did the twist and limbo (and won contests at it) but I also read poetry and science fiction, which pretty much branded me as an outcast. I joined the volunteer fire department the week after I turned eighteen, was a first aid and water safety instructor before then, rode ambulance and even performed my first emergency childbirth delivery before I turned nineteen. I was different from my "different" friends, and from my parents, but my grandfather understood me.

I get a kick, now, of being in contact with old acquaintances, and finding out just how much they have become like me, but I'm still not interested in drugs or the Beatles and only in the last fifteen years, since the passing of my first wife, have I learned that Stevie Nicks is a girl.

[Lodge2004]

I was different from my "different" friends, and from my parents, but my grandfather understood me.

My parents were very conservative growing up and my father was career military, but there was a stark difference between them and their parents. They enjoyed life, believed strongly in "free will" versus destiny and drilled independence and self-sufficiency into their children. My grandparents, who lived through the depression and had VERY hard lives, enjoyed life as well but were always preparing for the crisis coming down the road.

Although my father hunted often, he would never have even considered carrying a concealed firearm. My grandmother, on the other hand, carried a derringer in her purse until she was in her nineties.

I'm not a big fan of the whole generational (x, y, z) thing. Yes, our society has changed much in the last few decades, but it is always evolving. As with many things, it tends to go in circles and cycles. Kids started wearing long hair in the 1960's, but it was not nearly as long as worn in the 1860's. Gang bangers run around with silly names like "B-Stupid", but in the late 1800's we had gang bangers with just as silly "go by" names. Drugs are rampant today, but there are also some "respected" uber-rich family's in the US who made their money running drugs and booze many years ago.

Guess my only point is that although today's generational issues seem daunting, society eventually corrects itself. The only question is how hard/easy that correction will be. Personally, I have a great deal of hope in the current generation fighting in Iraq and Afganistan. In 20 years or so, those young men and women will be our Mayors, Governors, Police Chiefs, etc... I'm looking forward to that day.

[seamusTX]

The nature of military service seems to have changed quite a bit with the all-volunteer force. During the Vietnam war, a lot of draftees were resentful and cynical. They did not see service as a career.

I knew some of them.

- Jim

[Liberty]

The nature of military service seems to have changed quite a bit with the all-volunteer force. During the Vietnam war, a lot of draftees were resentful and cynical. They did not see service as a career.

I knew some of them.

- Jim

I know one pretty well too.

[WildBill]

their "non-conformity" ends up being a new conformity.

And each future generation thinks that it's their new idea.

[jimlongley]

The nature of military service seems to have changed quite a bit with the all-volunteer force. During the Vietnam war, a lot of draftees were resentful and cynical. They did not see service as a career.

I knew some of them.

- Jim

I know one pretty well too.

I dodged the draft, I enlisted.

[seamusTX]

There have always been people who willingly enlisted, and there have always been people who avoided serving. But there has been a generational shift. Everyone now in the U.S. military wants to be there, or at least they joined for the bonus or the educational opportunities. Very few have gone AWOL or otherwise tried to get out.

Also, the U.S. military is now so thoroughly integrated that is the best opportunity for a black man to get ahead, even to reaching the top and being considered presidential material. And women also are getting ahead there.

All of this was much different during Vietnam.

- Jim

[bryang]

I think the most significant generation gap from the 1960s until now is racial tolerance. I remember black families being burned out when they moved into all-white neighborhoods. I remember the very common use of insulting racial and ethnic terms that have become socially unacceptable. I remember when having a "colored girl" on Star Trek in 1968 was controversial. I remember when something said "Made in Japan or China" meant junk.

Now, the majority of people, most of the time, don't care.

Interracial marriage, out-of-wedlock pregnancy, and divorce used to be viewed as fates worse than death. Now they are generally accepted. (I have mixed feelings about how widespread divorce has become.)

Hair styles are the least of it. I remember when the Beatles arrived in the U.S. and were thought to have long hair, which would not earn a comment now. People of both sexes can wear their hair however they like, from crew-cut to spiked and painted.

Personally, I can barely tolerate extravagant or crude tattoos or body piercing.

- Jim

I remember "White" and "Colored" toilets, drinking fountains, seating, etc. I remember Viet Nam and Kent State and the troops coming home at night. I remember the Beatles on Ed Sullivan and remarking there goes our music - or something like that. It stunk then and it stinks now. I remember seeing the movie 'Man With A Golden Arm" and not knowing what it was about. There weren't widespread drugs in the '50's - were there? I saw men holding hands in San Francisco in 1969 & 70 but I don't remember same sex marriages.

I remember when there was a work ethic in this country. I don't fault the Hispanics for doing work that others are paid not to do - or think is below there station in life. Someone has to do it and more legitimate power to them.

I don't remember people walking around with their underwear showing or males holding up their pants with one hand while doing whatever with the other. Now, that's real class!

I remember when you didn't feel the need to carry a handgun shopping or to work or wherever. I also remember when kids addressed their elders as Mr. and Mrs. and "Please" and Thank You" were in vogue.

What's the biggest thing? I dunno', pick one.

Well, I have to agree with all of the above, because all of those things I remember clearly. I did not like the Beatles...I was a, one o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock, ...rock around the clock tonight! You know, "that old time rock and roll" and of course an Elvis fan...my dad like to have had a heart attack that night we watched him on the Ed Sullivan show (on a little bitty, very snowy tv) I thought the Beatles were a little bit over the top, for a little one-horse West Texas town.

I remember the patriotic spirit, the American can do generation.

I remember when a hand shake and your word was the most valuable possession a man had.

I remember when the schools used the honor system and trusted the students to do the right thing. If you didn't, you got a "good" spanking...and then another one when you got home.

I remember when if a neighbor had a problem, it was everyone's problem and chipped in to help in anyway they could.
Yes, I would say that the times have changed...some for the good, and some for the worse.

-geo

[bayouhazard]

I'm not a big fan of the whole generational (x, y, z) thing.

I agree. For the most part, these sort of generational differences happen over time, rather than being bright line demarcations. In addition, if we looked at college students ten years ago we would have seen a large "generation gap" between them and their parents. However, if we look at those same people today, I think we'd find a significant "generation gap" between their thirtysomething selves and their college selves. So, if we look at values and mores of the youth of today, how much is a product of their generation and how much is a result of their age and stage of life?


I'm not trying to cause a big sensation...

[Liberty]

The nature of military service seems to have changed quite a bit with the all-volunteer force. During the Vietnam war, a lot of draftees were resentful and cynical. They did not see service as a career.

I knew some of them.

- Jim

I know one pretty well too.

I dodged the draft, I enlisted.

I joined also, and even though I knew it wasn't a bad thing for me, but I do believe I became a little more cynical of what a free America really meant. I surely resented the choices presented to me.

[seamusTX]

For the most part, these sort of generational differences happen over time, rather than being bright line demarcations. In addition, if we looked at college students ten years ago we would have seen a large "generation gap" between them and their parents. However, if we look at those same people today, I think we'd find a significant "generation gap" between their thirtysomething selves and their college selves.

These are two good insights.

Certain events or years in history become identified as tipping points. Somewhere between the first public appearances of Elvis and the Beatles, we had a proliferation of fornication, drugs, and rock-and-roll, rebellion, war protests, long hair on men, blue jeans, etc., etc.

But that trend had been brewing for a long time. Direct precursors can be found as far back as 1920. It was largely suppressed by the Depression and WW II.

And the average 50-year-old in any era winces at the memory of some of the things that he or she did thirty years earlier. In my case, it's wearing polyester.

- Jim

[jimlongley]

And the average 50-year-old in any era winces at the memory of some of the things that he or she did thirty years earlier. In my case, it's wearing polyester.

- Jim

Yeah, I was climbing phone poles. Of course, due to that, I was able to retire before I turned 50, and what I was wincing at was not taking advantage of some of the opportunities presented and retiring at a higher level.

[kalipsocs]

Ha well I will not throw my hat in the ring, but lightly place it in as I am one of the lower men on the totem pole. I was born on December 31, 1985. I read about the Vietnam War, the counter culture, the "Red Scare", the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the fall of the Berlin wall in a history book. I don't know how to play a record (no....seriously) and am constantly making my parents feel dated when they mention a former star or musician to only catch a "Who is that?"

On immediate age gaps, I can say that I get absolutely flustered when I try to teach my mom anything relating to technology (my parents are 55 & 56). My dad has always been open to technology having a bag phone, the Motorola "Brick", BetaMax, and the first computer I ever saw and used, a 486! My mother on the other hand uses her $2000 Mac to check email and sporadically go to a website or 2. Practice makes perfect, but she never does!! So without going into too much detail I let out a deep sigh every time she wants me to teach something. Pops does alright.

I can also say that attitudes towards things are different. Tattoos to me are fascinating and while I have none, I know very much about whats involved technically and admire original pieces just as much as traditional paintings. My parents and grandparents still view them as something reserved for "outlaw types" or just trashy in general. While far from liberal, I do think the drug war is certainly a wasted one and oppose, especially marijuana, laws governing what a person can or can't put in their own body. My mother never had a drop of alcohol till the law permitted. That being said, I could take a "wiz quiz" in full confidence right now if challenged.

Now one wonders on my upbringing. Only child to divorced parrents, upper middle class in the suburbs of Dallas-Fort Worth. Minus divorced parents, doesn't get much more plain jane than that! Was a fairly straight shooter with a few fudges in the teenage years.

Personally, my aspirations are to have a great family and work-to-live. My word is my bond and if I give it, it is not broken. Libertarian in political viewpoint (for the most part). I go to work and school, but with much assistance from at least one of my parents. I don't have mounds of debt from careless spending, in fact, just got the limit raised on the card I pay off every month.

Where I was going with all that is that I can't ever speak for an entire generation, but I can say that there are certainly some of us out there who have convictions worth standing up for and understand the gravity of many personal choices. To use my fav. quote from a psych prof I deeply enjoyed, "depends on personality." There are certainly temporal gaps i.e. technology, but philosophical gaps I believe are pure perception and reinforced by ever changing tides in media and science. Study says this, oh wait, no it says that, oh back to the first thing, and the media...well...yea nuff said.

So I hope my $.02 made some sense without too much rambling and am always wanting to listen more than speak. You never gain any insight or wisdom if you don't listen and there are enough combined years here to write a few novels! So with that, I will go back to faithful reader.

[seamusTX]

Interesting to hear from someone on the other side of the gap.

Your message made me aware that regardless of age, interest in CHL issues and membership in this forum are going to limit the participants to a certain range of beliefs, philosophy, or whatever you want to call it.

Regarding technology, I embrace whatever comes along to the extent that it meets a need or makes my life a little easier, but I hate instant messaging. I have it at work only because I am required to do so. I find it very irritating to have two people demanding responses by IM while a third calls my cell phone. It's like having a litter of ill-trained puppies jumping on me.

I don't know what young people will be doing in 2035 to irritate you, but I'm sure they will find something. The past century of U.S. history tells me that we are overdue for a puritanical backlash.

- Jim

[Keith B]

I don't know what young people will be doing in 2035 to irritate you, but I'm sure they will find something. The past century of U.S. history tells me that we are overdue for a puritanical backlash.

- Jim

Hopefully the worst it will be by the time I am 75 (2035) is still 'Hey, get off my lawn you durn kids!!'